"Any thoughts or suggestions on what to look out for?"

Yeah, you should look out for what used to be, although those who know the golf course seem to say that's pretty damn hard to find at this point.

Behr, at least philosophically, may've been one of the real "break through" guys in architectural history and some back then said Lakeside was one of the best courses ever done. "Some" being people like Alister Mackenzie. But, again, those who know the course say it's pretty hard to find now what that was and what it meant.

Trivia: Lakeside is where Bob Jones filmed that awesome instructional video.

There are others on this board who know the course better than I, but I did play 3 rounds there 2 summers ago and liked the course very much. It certainly has an "old-school" feel - compact routing, smallish greens, tree-lined fairways, etc. It reminds me of some of the courses in the SF Bay Area (such as California GC, Claremont & the Presidio) that play much harder than they look on the scorecard.

I would definitely try to get at least one practice round in before the Kelly Cup. A little local knowledge will go a long way.  

"Max Behr was in many respects the mad genius of gca. So whatever might be left of his courses is always of interest."

Bob;

It sure is of interest for a couple of reasons.

The first is to see if one can tell if there are any vestiges left of how he actually translated onto the ground what he wrote so comprehensively about.

The second thing of interest is simply to contemplate the supreme irony of one of Behr's overall theses ("Permanant Architecture") about proper architecture----that it should be built to look natural so man would be less likely to think to change it and that it should be built like nature's most enduring earth forms to withstand the ravages of wind and particularly water----and the fact that Lakeside's plight was to be so ravaged over the years by both man (redesign and architectural alteration) and Nature (severe destruction from flooding).

Of course one could blame Lakeside's entire plight on an uncaring and unaware membership---frankly that's always an easy and convenient thing to do, but honestly that may not be the most intelligent way of looking at Lakeside, as well as at Behr's entire architectural philosophy.

I completely believe in Behr's architectural philosophy, at least in principle, but the nuts and bolts and details of it need to be better explained and more seriously studied, in my opinion.

Perhaps the very first thing that needs to be asked about Behr and his architectural philosophy is did he, and it, completely OVER-estimate the sensibilities of man---the golfer.

TEP -

You could make a pretty good case for Behr and Herb Leeds as being the two least known of those architects that were  highly influential in the history of gca. Everyone knows about MacD, MacK, RTJ, Dye and so forth.

But Leeds and Behr are unknown to most people. Makes you wonder if maybe someone ought to put together a little exhibition or essay or something.   They certainly deserve the attention.

Bob

I played Lakeside once several years ago but also played Behr's Hacienda Golf Club sveral times and loved it even more the only problem was they put in a water feature on one hole and changed the green that screwed the hole up 16 I think. Jeez I hate greens commitees.

Jim, Hacienda is actually a Willie Watson course. For years it had been attributed to Behr, but after a recent renovation, it was discovered Watson had originally designed it. Shortly after, Behr did come in with Billy Bell and perform some work. RTJ, sr. came in some years later and then Ted Robinson. Tommy N can give specifics on this. John Harbottle performed the most recent work.

"You've asked that question a couple of times now. It does go to the heart of things. I've been thinking about it. It raises big, bigger and humongous questions."

Bob:

It probably does raise big, bigger or even humongous questions, but my sense is it shouldn't scare us to ask them.

The reason I say that is let's just say it's somewhat determined that he was wrong and did over-estimate man, the golfer, and his sensibilities when he wrote what he did way back then----does that mean man, the golfer, will never care or does it mean that for whatever reason he just accepts what he's given in a general sense?

Let's just say for the hell of it that the architectural philosophy that Behr laid out had really come to pass in a massive way. We don't really know what man, the golfer, would have felt about it do we, since it really never did come to pass.

This is a question which I believe will eventually end up at the age old question of whether golf architects, generally speaking, should be leaders or followers? It may even get down to the old question of what an artist creates art for!  

Obviously, compared to other art forms, the art form of golf course architecture is substantially complicated in that vein since golf architecture is so interactive even if one does view it as an art form.

On the other hand, buildings are interactive too, and history seems to show that didn't much stop the creative artistic expressions and independence of building architects. The only real difference between building architecture as an art form and golf course architecture as an art form in an interactive sense is one cannot exactly go inside on a golf course's architecture.  

David -

Lakeside is a really good test and the set up is incredibly difficult for The Kelly Cup. Lots of rough and very firm and fast greens, which makes the already small targets miniscule. A very good driving test and the small greens require exacting iron play. Par 70 with 2 par 5s on the front and none on the back. Better get off to a good start, 'cause after the 2nd hole it gets really tough. The stretch of 5-9 is brutal, even the really pretty short par 3 6th. The 5th is a dog leg left par 4 over a rise that is the best hole on the course IMO. Good set of par 3s that don't tolerate poor shots. The 9th is a brutal example as you have 240 yards to a heavily bunkered, bit of a reverse redan green that usually has rough on the slope rendering the redan pretty useless.

Back side has some good holes and some tricky ones. 11 is a terrific hole with several options off the tee. If you are bold and flirt with the OB right with a required cut drive, you are rewarded with a short approach. If you miss it left, you're blocked from the green and right is as described. If you use a short, safe club you are left with a long approach into a smallish green. Good test of nerve and execution. 12th is a short hole with more risk reward options. Driver around the trees and down the hill leaves a small pitch, but don't miss left. 3 iron off the tee leaves a 9 iron approach into a tiny green. Try both shots in your practice round. Be very careful with the 13th. Very short and enticing. Just get it in the fairway every day and you'll beat the field on this hole.

A big key as always with fast greens is find yourself below the hole, only thing here is they are so small(probably the smallest I know of) and firm that leaving yourself short is very exacting. The green contours are subtle, but do still have movement. When they are fast it makes putting short ones a real test of nerve, 'cause they require a firm stroke to hold the line.

There's a bunch of rambled thoughts. Maybe see you out there.

David, one other thing. There is a Honey Baked Ham store on Riverside Drive about 5 minutes from the course in Toluca Lake. In the hallway to the parking lot is an old rendering of the original routing of Behr's. It shows how the nines were flipped, and the old green on what I believe is now 12 used to be across the L.A. River on the Universal Studios property approximately where Steven Spielberg's office now sits. The 13th tee was also across the wash. The rest of the routing looks to be intact.

Wow Michael! Is the drawing hanging in a window or something?

"Hamlet was having a bad week; but he raises some pretty fundamental questions - maybe something like (to borrow a bit from another of TE's posts):

"Does man want the golfing experience to test the fullest possible range of his skills and sporting instincts?"



Peter:

That's a good way to put it. That gets to the heart of it alright.

Personally, I think in a general sense, he, man, the golfer, does want the golfing experience to test the fullest range of his skills and sporting instincts at least in an ideal context, even if he may sense that has never really been provided to him.

On the other hand, the architect and even people like us trying to discuss this subject need to also discuss how to deal with his frailties and insecurties at the same time.

In the final analysis, Behr, at least when it came to how we should consider the "Hazard" in a penal sense in golf could really do no better than to offer us a "glass half empty/glass half full" argument. He tried to convince us that the very same scary looking bunker both we and he was looking at should not intimidate us or make us shrink back in self-doubt because we viewed it as penal and so capable of punishing us, but that it should inspire us to challenge it and go for the gusto of just weathering Hell by slipping by it on the way to the promised land.

But if you look a bit closer to Behr's argument that isn't all he offered when it came to the roll of the hazard or the roll of "penalty" in golf.

After all he did explain how to place the actual fact of a penal hazard so as to so much better give us all our own choices of how to challenge it or avoid it other than just always having to go down the primrose lane between it.

David/Michael -

Do either of you know of other maps of the original Behr course? Is there anything in the clubhouse?

That's a remarkable find. And at Honey Baked Hams no less.

Bob

David/Michael -

Do either of you know of other maps of the original Behr course? Is there anything in the clubhouse?

That's a remarkable find. And at Honey Baked Hams no less.

Bob

Bob, I have RSFGC's club history that has the 1927 and 1929 revised routing for the course. If you want, I can scan them and post them.

Michael:

Do you think Behr drew that rendering hanging in the hall of the ham place?

If so, would you mind either stealing it for me or offering them $100 dollars for it?

If they say yes the check will be immediately in the mail.

Oh Shit, I hate to alarm them and seem like I'm overpaying but tell them I'll buy a honey baked ham too.

You Tom, I don't have any plans this evening and I only live a couple of hours away, so.......