[Patrick_Mucci]

reduce maintainance costs while producing an acceptable product ?

Or, is that impossible given today's expectations and TV exposure ?

FOR NON-SUPERNTENDENTS:
Rather than offer vague generalities, tell us specifically, how you would reduce a green budget.

FOR SUPERINTENDENTS ONLY:

If you had NO GREEN committee, and you were told that your budget was $ X, and that the club would share, 50-50 any savings below X, how would you go about reducing the budget while at the same time presenting a viable product ?

[PThomas]

less watering and less maintenance of out of play areas

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Thomas,

How much of an impact do you estimate that would have on a 1,000,000 + budget ?

As a percentile and/or a dollar amount ?

[PThomas]

its a start Patrick!

the big problem, as you wrote, is people's expectations, which hopefully will change as time goes one

why oh why so many people like wall to wall green on a golf course I have no idea...maybe if water rates got tripled and people's green fees/dues went up accordingly that would help

proper tree maintenace helps too, taking out ones that cause growth problems, which can then reduce chemical application and labor costs

minimizing chemical applications whenever possible can help too

[Phil Benedict]

I'd shut down the swimming pool and cut down on other amenities and focus on the golf course.  But I am a selfish individual who only cares about the golf and having a beer in the grill room after a round.  Otherwise that other stuff that weighs down the finances of many "country clubs" is of no interest.

The fact that I no longer have young children and my wife could care less about club life contributes to this self indulgent attitude.  However, I think clubs will need to make choices between their golf course and the rest of the club in order to stay above water financially.

[A.G._Crockett]

Very tough questions, Patrick.

I don't know the numbers and %'s, but most here would start with less water and fewer chemicals.  I'd agree, but with great trepidation about how easy that is to do.

The super at my club once told me that the course is a large farm with several different types of crops that demand constant attention, and it is naive to just say "less water and fewer chemicals".

The problem with that generalization is that it ignores situations that develop constantly.  If we have a hot, dry summer, and the super doesn't water, then he's looking for a job.  If he has to treat the whole course to kill off the poa so the bermuda can come out and the poa doesn't spread to the greens due to an extremely warm winter, then that is an unavoidable cost as well.  

It is well and good also to say fewer flower beds and less maintenance of out of play areas, but that may be part of the "curb appeal" that makes the club go financially.

[Craig Sweet]

Just one example....many clubs top dress their fairways monthly....we penciled out the costs for doing ours and it came to $43,500.....JUST for the sand needed!

[Joe Hancock]

Just one example....many clubs top dress their fairways monthly....we penciled out the costs for doing ours and it came to $43,500.....JUST for the sand needed!

Craig,

For the sake of clarity, could you please name several of the many clubs that are doing this practice? I don't know of any that do it monthly.

Thanks,

Joe

[PThomas]

Just one example....many clubs top dress their fairways monthly....we penciled out the costs for doing ours and it came to $43,500.....JUST for the sand needed!

wow..almost half a million a year

pls help as I am ingnorant re this:  is this REALLY necessary every month?  would do it every other month make maintenace more expesnive in the long run?

[Phil McDade]

I'd shut down the swimming pool and cut down on other amenities and focus on the golf course.  But I am a selfish individual who only cares about the golf and having a beer in the grill room after a round.  Otherwise that other stuff that weighs down the finances of many "country clubs" is of no interest.

The fact that I no longer have young children and my wife could care less about club life contributes to this self indulgent attitude.  However, I think clubs will need to make choices between their golf course and the rest of the club in order to stay above water financially.

Phil:

Well-run outdoor pools (I'm assuming most country club pools are outdoors, for sake of the argument) can be money-makers, as opposed to money-losers. They may not be, for reasons that probably have to do with club practices (e.g., opening the doors to outside groups for pool rentals and such), and not the operations of the pool itself. I think outdoor pools sometimes get a bad rap from the golfing set, who may largely view them as money-sucking drains on the budget, when in practice a well-run, appropriately staffed, well-marketed outdoor pool can provide net income for an organization or municipality.

[Bill_McBride]

We already stopped overseeding anything - turns out brown is acceptable if there aren't any transition problems come springtime.

Plus the course plays much better F & F.  

I think we saved about $30-40K but could be wrong.  One reason we saved quite a bit is that we were applying the overseed poa trivialis in three passes to avoid wash off.  When we put it all down in one pass and got a heavy rain - not uncommon on the Gulf Coast in October - a lot of the seed would wash down to the low points and it would be a mess then and come spring.

The three passes took quite a bit more labor but minimized the wash off.  Now none of that is a problem and the budget is reduced.

We also replaced our irrigation system which reduced a $15,000 year repair line item to zero.    Of course it did require an $800,000 capital investment!

[Craig Sweet]

donal....here in Montana superintendents have a great deal of difficulty finding employees, much less cutting back on employees...

This is especially true in areas where they are building exclusive, private golf clubs...there are few workers available...

The big problem is you have to be careful what you eliminate and what you keep....reducing imputs can have a negative effect that costs more than the chemical application....and vice-versa....non-essential...non life threatening measures...such as reduced bunker maintainence...might save enough to get thru an economic downturn...

[Michael Hayes]

RE: the 40K+ sand budget for fairways, I think Craig was stating the annual cost for sand with a fairway topdressing program.  It is quite common for higher end clubs from San Fran north to do fairway topdressing.  firmer surfaces and reduced worm casting is noted.  

PGRS (plant growth regulators) have positive effects on fairway turf and in many instances can dramatically reduce the amount of mowing required.  Whether they admit it or not, most supers would give up just about anything in order to keep their PGR's in the budget.

[SL_Solow]

Introduction of "natural" areas utilizing native grasses which need little in the way of fertilizer or irrigation can be very useful.  Clearly this will not work in fairway, putting green or rough areas that are regularly in play.  However many courses maintain out of the way transition areas.  Native plantings are cheaper and can create a natural look and feel to the property as well as providing wildlife habitat.  But the club has to like the "look."

[Eric Morrison]

Echoing what Donnie said, mowing practices and patterns can realize some savings...expanding naturalized areas to reduce labor is one example.
This discussion heads down the path of what are "acceptable conditions" to the ones who are signing the paychecks...! It will be tough to reduce costs if bunkers have to be perfect for every group, greens have to roll 12 every day, everything has to be perfectly green, there is nary a weed to be found on the course, rough has to be perfect and show no signs of grub damage...etc. etc. etc.
Course conditioning expectations have to change, otherwise this trend will continue to spiral out of control...the "Augusta National syndrome" has dug in its claws at too many courses.

[TEPaul]

"FOR NON-SUPERNTENDENTS:
Rather than offer vague generalities, tell us specifically, how you would reduce a green budget."

Rather than vague generalities?

OK, I'd cut the crew in half and tailor the rest of the maintenance program to what they could handle without walking out the door from overwork. Is that specific enough for you Patrick?  

[Doug Ralston]

If ya don't water dem fairways ..... "they'll be leaving you to look for greener pastures" LOL

Doug

[Steve Curry]

Pat,

How about this line following your title line...

reduce inflation and the minimum wage?

No to be flip, but as much as I work hard to keep BHCC operating on a very tight budget it doesn't get any easier each year.

Insurance, legal, tax, utility, shipping and staff costs and wages are all rising, some at a higher rate than inflation.


Best,
Steve

[Craig Sweet]

Not to hijack a thread, and I think this is sort of inline with the tenor of this one...

I sat and listened to, and watched, all kinds of presentations this week at our regional GCSA spring conference and I was struck by how out of whack things have become.

Here in Montana they are building exclusive clubs with golf courses at elevations OVER 7000ft!  I saw photo's of maintinance crews clearing snow off greens in March/April...snow that was deeper than the workers were tall!  I saw photo's of snow covered fairways....photo's taken in June and July!  I heard about the extraordinary costs associated with grow in, and ultimately the daily maintinance at these locations. I heard how IMPOSSIBLE it is to find reliable (to say nothing about good) employees in these locations. I heard how employees have to commute for 1 1/2 hours on a twisting, terrible highway, through a mountain canyon each way, everyday they work

And when the presentation was over, I wondered out loud, why bother? Is it worth all this so a few hundred of the worlds wealthy elite can come to Montana to golf and hang out?

It is absolutely crazy...

[JESII]

Craig,

You seem to imply that these employees driving 1+ hours to get to work are forced to...is that really the case?

[Craig Sweet]

Jes...no one is forced to do anything....they see an ad in the paper  for a job paying $12-15 per hour...some mileage money and then they look at what's available in Bozeman and they say, why not...

But that is NOT the point...the point is...why even consider building a golf course in that location, and utilize the resources necessary to build it, and maintain it, for a membership of a couple of hundred people?

My only conclusion is, if that's what rich people are willing to pay, so be it....

And thus...I have given a roundabout answer to Pat Mucci's question....perhaps when the economy hits the fan, the only golf left will be rich man golf, and piss poor conditions for the rest of us?

[JESII]

With such an optimistic outlook you ought to be a motivational speaker...I hear Tony Robbins is looking to do a "bizarro world" (see Seinfeld) skit...you could be BIZARRO TONY...

[Chris Cupit]

In all my experience, I would love to see any example of a country club pool that comes close to making money.  I sold my pool and tennis courts to focus on the golf course and a great atmosphere inside the clubhouse--good burgers and a good drink.

After two years of no pool or tennis, I have a waiting list for membership and have dumped the two biggest financial drains ever on a country club operation.  Pool and tennis are LOSERS.

Real qucik math:  pool costs $150,000 to build with a "life" in a commercial setting of 15 maybe 20 years.  Insurance (especially with a diving board and swim and dive teams) will be around $10,000.  Full time lifeguards and coaches for the teams, not to mention staff for the snack bar and staff for the changing rooms and bathrooms will easily run operating expenses for the pool, alone over $60,000.  After the third year, you will have capital expenses of about $4000 a year (pool furniture, vandalism, pump house, filtration system) all for a THREE MONTH operation!!!!  Whose guest fees for the pool ($5 per guest per day) could ever pay for the operations?  How many snickers bars or hot dogs are you going to sell?

Tennis is also a loser--clay courts??  4 will run you $20k and a dedicated employee all year.  Tennis pros and assistants will set you back another $75k.  Blowing courts, maintaining the flowers around the courts! and catering food to the cheapest people in the world (tennis people) and you will blow $100k a year on an area that generates no revenue from members and token amounts from guests--court fees of what $10?

For the course--I have planted many out of play areas with fescues, sedges, and some other grasses that we will never mow as opposed to maintaining bermuda wall to wall. (Saved mowing of 5-6 acres of bermuda).  Eliminated seasonal flowers and again went with perennial native grasses as a "theme".  We went back to gang units to mow fairways to save some money in order to walk mow greens and hand rake bunkers.    

We have made a conscious effort to educate the membership about the virtues of dry, firm. fast fairways.  Yes, we need to keep tees and greens irrigated and green although I have made it a point to preach healthy grass not necessarily green grass.  Our members, especially the seniors love the roll they get and only get a little ruffled when the fairways get so hard that they can't hit their fairway woods without skulling all of them.

We also replace mowing greens one day a week with rolling during several months wich is faster and cuts down on labor costs.  

[David_Elvins]

JES II,

I think Craig raises a valid point.  THe number one factor on mainenance budget is location.  A course on sandy soil in a temperate climate will be a lot easier to run on a shoestring budget than a course that is fighting nature in the desert or at 7000ft.  It is all very well to look at how to reduce maintenance budgets, but the majority of the budget is decided before the course is openned.  If you wanted to reduce maintenance costs across the whole industry, course location and construction would be the two areas where dramatic maintenance savings can be made.  

[Mark_F]

A course on sandy soil in a temperate climate will be a lot easier to run on a shoestring budget

Any particular course you had in mind, David.

Patrick:

You bring the British golf course mentality to the rest of the world.

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