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rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« on: February 21, 2007, 07:14:02 PM »
All this talk of oceanfront holes, whether it's 16 at Cypress Point, 5 at Pebble Beach, or anything where you inhale the salt-air as you play...

Most will agree that being alongside of the ocean improves the hole, or at minimum, improves the setting which may serve to enhance the "total golf experience" of playing the hole.

Ask any player what his favorite hole at Pacific Dunes is and he will likely point to 4, 10, 11, or 13.  Yet, Tom Doak names among his favorites the inland 2nd and 6th.

Ask about Cypress Point and most will without hesitation say 16, with many singing praises of 15 and 17 as well, yet the architecture contingent makes a strong case for 9.

It's easy to see that the ocean no doubt props up holes that would otherwise not be considered world-class - 6, 7, and 10 at Pebble Beach come to mind, as do literally hundreds of others around the world.

Often times on GCA we fall into the trap of over-reacting to what we believe is the "Average Joe Opinion".  

The Average Joe thinks Fazio and Nicklaus are the pinnacle of course design.  While their work is, even when scrutinized by the most ruthless critics, held up to be perfectly fine (just perhaps not revolutionary) many on GCA.com seem to pan it as worthless, useless, and an utter waste of a couple hundred acres of land.  In some cases when discussiing these gentlemen, you'd think the top-dressing on the greens of their courses was laced with LSD (assuming you understand LSD to be a bad thing)

Likewise, many of us fancy ourselves above the trap of letting the ocean have an impact on our opinion of any given hole...that we can somehow seperate the two.

I've admitted it many times before...I am an ocean whore.  The setting, to me, plays prominently in the "total golf experience" and I am guilty of giving passes (and happily so, I might add) to otherwise mundane holes that just so happen to enjoy spectacular scenery.    

The 3rd at Monarch Beach in Dana Point, CA, is a disaster of a golf hole - an awkward short par 4 that, if measured along the outside of the dogleg, might hit 325 yards, but as the crow flies is closer to 250.  Still, if given the choice between this hole or a halfway-decent parkland 4-par with no real good but no real bad, I'll play the disaster on the shore.

So my question is not the obvious "What are average holes that are considered good because they are on the ocean".  No, my friends, my question is rather:

What holes feature great architecture but are either overlooked or denounced by architecture critics because most Average Joes just see it as eye candy - On which holes do we overlook GREAT architecture on simply because the hole is on the ocean and calling it great would appear to be the "easy" conclusion?

To me, the poster child from my modest travels is the 4th at Bandon Dunes.  In fact, that entire golf course might be the poster-child for this (but that's a different thread).  The 4th hole to me is absolutely world class.  You put that hole on any golf course and it's a strong hole.  The tee shot has both mystery and a risk-reward element, and the second shot is all-world to a wonderful green complex.  Couple this with the "reveal" of the green as you walk to your ball in the fairway and the diagonally-situated green with a downhill approach and to me, you've got a real winner.

Yes, 4 at Bandon Dunes was honored with some sort of award (commemerated in a plaque on the tee - I don't recall the publication) but to me it should be mentioned in the same breath at minimum with the 4th and 13th at Pacific, and at maximum as potentially one of the best medium-length par 4s in the world.  

Despite the fact that I think the setting on the cliffs in Bandon improves the hole and the total golf experience, I think this same setting may actually harm its stature in the eyes of architecture critics.  Nobody want's to look like an easy sell, and to those concerned with appearing as an easy mark, the ocean might in fact be the greatest gimmick of all.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:09:02 AM by Ryan Simper »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 07:22:26 PM »
Very interesting thread, Ryan, and I like your nomination of Bandon Dunes #4.

I'll nominate another hole at Bandon that you mentioned--Pacific Dunes #4.  A lot of people, including myself, tend to omit it from the list of great holes at Pacific.  If I'm being honest with myself, I tend to do so because I assume that most golfers playing PD would identify it as a standout.  So, I go out of my way to praise the inland holes like 2 and 3 and 6 through 8.  But, I'm being too clever by half because #4 is quite a hole.  The drive (especially for a right handed player whose miss is left to right) is a testing one and the green surrounds are very interesting as well.  I don't believe it gets the credit it deserves.  

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2007, 09:54:02 PM »
You had to bring up Monarch 3; a fine example of one of the worst holes on one of the worst "ocean" courses of all time. I see 7/8 every day......chock full of ocean whores. What I find ironic is that the best hole (7) is completely secluded from the water with no view, pointing inland.

I'd nominate PB9 as an oceanside hole that's well done. A unique combination of beauty, strategy and power. The earlier post-Egan version might have been better than today, but either version is pretty solid.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 09:20:49 AM by Jon Spaulding »
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 10:08:14 AM »
Tim -

4 at PD is indeed a good hole - not sure that I'd jump onboard and say the architecture is great there...it's a good solid stiff par 4, especially into the wind, with that terror of a tee shot.

Jon -

Yes, I went and said it.  From one Southern Californian to another, my most sincere apologies for evoking the memory of playing that hole for you.  BUT, If nothing else, you agree with me that it's an architectural catastrophe.  Still, give me that versus a better hole in a bland setting and I'd choose to play that hole most of the time.  Part of the value for me of being a golf course is enjoying my time between shots...as I said, I'm a self-admitted ocean whore :)

But I do think "clever" is a great word to use, Tim.  Many of us, both in GCA and in other areas of life, try too hard to be clever when maybe the most obvious conclusion is right in front of our faces.  
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:10:30 AM by Ryan Simper »

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 10:14:57 AM »
Ryan:

OK, I can't resist.  This is just way, way too perfect. I hope I don't ruin your very interesting topic here, but....

You do realize that on every hole you mentioned so far except 16 CPC, the ocean doesn't exist, right?  Remember the Muccian Doctrine:  if it's not in play, it doesn't matter.

And the ocean is not in play on any hole at the Bandon complex.  Tell me again, why are we going up there tomorrow?

Please forgive me. ;D ;D

BTW, I suppose it goes without saying that I absolutely agree that people get too clever when they overlook the obvious greatness of seaside holes, and just plain obstinate when they try to deny their worth.  3 Monarch Beach is a perfect example:  it is a disaster of a golf hole by all measures of play - it's completely stupid and downright dangerous as it so invites cutting the corner and putting lives in danger.  Still, I'd rather play that hole than any hole at my home course, Santa Teresa.  There is just something to be said about being by the sea.

One more thing:  many thanks for the ammo if my battle with Mucci kicks back into gear... it's a very good point that enjoying the time spent between shots has great value - and I have never phrased it that way.

TH

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:15:17 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 11:29:32 AM »
Tim -

4 at PD is indeed a good hole - not sure that I'd jump onboard and say the architecture is great there...it's a good solid stiff par 4, especially into the wind, with that terror of a tee shot.


Ryan,

It is difficult to assess the "architecture" of a hole like Pacific Dunes #4 when nature has obviously provided so much.  But, Doak and Co. did a good job with the bunkers on the left, squeezing the tee shot (although there's actually plenty of fairway), and in punishing the player who bails out left by making that shot into the green from the left next to impossible.  I'll stand by my contention that it's an underrated hole, at least among the too clever bunch, of which I'm a sometimes member.  

I liken the tendency of many to downplay obviously fun-to-play holes to the urge to identify a somewhat obscure song or movie as your favorite.  Especially when I was younger and music really defined your identity, you couldn't say that some top 40 hit was your favorite song.  You had to name something more obscure.  For example (dating myself here), you couldn't say that Train in Vain or Should I Stay or Should I Go was your favorite Clash song, you had to choose something more along the lines of Lost in the Supermarket or Wrong 'Em Boyo.  Similarly with commercial versus "independent" films.  I think the same tendency is at work among us golf snobs.  

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 11:36:59 AM »
You are going up there because you guys are nuts.

After seeing the weather report, I can't say I regret declining the invite.  I will think of you fellas when I head to St. Thomas in a couple weeks.  :)

As for "Confessions of an Ocean Whore," I don't go out that easily.  I do love golf by the sea, but I don't view it as the end all.  Part of it may be growing up about a half mile from it, but so did Ryan...

Although it is beautiful, the ocean has the same qualities on as seaside golf hole as OB.  Yes, it is not technically so in most cases, and yes, I would much rather slice my shot into the sea than over a white line into someone's house.  The key here is the finality of the penalty.  Bunkers can be built and holes can be routed over land in order to create strategy, but in most cases, this is not possible with the ocean.  Despite modern building technology, the ocean hasn't been moved by man since Moses.

When attempting to find a hole to fit Cabana Boy's request, I can only think of holes that are overrated due to their proximity to the sea.  I feel there needs to be a near-perfect land situation to introduce strategy to an oceanside hole.  We all know the usual suspects, #16 at CP, #8 at PB, #16 at BD, etc...

A great example of this is #4 at Pacific Dunes, as mentioned above.  The hole is great because of its setting.  However, without wind in a certain direction, the architecture stands aside because this hole represents a simple, difficult strategy, "Keep it on land."  This is why the best holes architecturally at PD are those further inland, because here the ocean doesn't so much interact strategically with shots played, it's there to keep the player honest.

As for too clever, I feel I'm usually a step behind these trends anyway, and I hope I know quality (or what my mind's-eye views as quality) when I see it, regardless of what anyone else thinks.  This is why golf and its architecture are so great, everyone has their own emotional reaction to the art as presented.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 11:50:57 AM »
Brad - damn right we're nuts.  You would seem to be the only sane one.   ;D

As for the ocean and its effects, well I too didn't grow up far from it, nor have I ever lived far from it.  Still it does have its effect on me.  And it's not the be all and end all - far from it.  I just do continue to seek it out, and when I play golf next to it, it does add value.

In any case you do make great points about architecture and each golfer's reaction to the art.  I'd just ask you:  does man live by architecture alone?  Are the best holes "architecturally" necessarily the ones that give the most joy to play?

Monarch Beach #3 is an architectural disaster - but it's still damn fun to play.

I guess this is gonna turn on what one means by "architecture."  You don't mean this to exclude scenic beauty, do you?  That is, you don't think Kidd put #4 Bandon Dunes where it is by accident, right?


Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 11:58:24 AM »
Ryan and Tom,

I just looked at the 10-day forecast for Bandon.  Yikes!  40s and rain.  I'm truly sorry.  Hopefully, you'll at least have some intermittent good weather.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 12:02:44 PM »
Ryan and Tom,

I just looked at the 10-day forecast for Bandon.  Yikes!  40s and rain.  I'm truly sorry.  Hopefully, you'll at least have some intermittent good weather.  

You don't say?  I hadn't noticed.  No, I haven't checked that about 25 times a day for the last three weeks, not at all....

 ;D ;D ;D

You might recall certain conversations way way back discussing times to go to Bandon.  I questioned the wisdom of going in winter. I was told by many who had gone during that season that it's the best kept secret in golf... that this is the Oregon banana belt and the weather is great... prices are cheaper, what a steal....

I do not hold grudges.  But unless that forecast proves to be at least a bit incorrect, I shall be ruthless in my crap-giving going forward about this issue.

 ;D ;D ;D

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 12:13:49 PM »
My reaction to mid-April in Bandon was, "next time, I'm going in July," and even that was after 75% good weather over a 5-6 day trip.

I don't think man (and by man in this case you mean golfer) lives by architecture alone, but for someone like most of those who have found their way here, it is a huge aspect of their golf enjoyment.

I think the holes that give one the most joy to play are those that fit the golfer's mind's eye the best.  This is why we all disagree so much on what is better, worse, needs fixing, or shouldn't be fixed.  For many, the best holes architecturally do give the most joy, as that is what a specific mind wants to see.  For others (most golfers, John Q. Public) all holes are a joy to play, because they are not in the office anymore, etc.  And of course, most "pictures of joy" are a combination of many aspects that have led us to play the game, be it architecture, competition, free time, comraderie, exercise, etc...

My example of Monarch Beach #3 is the homemade course I play every year in Northern Maine.  The course is 6200 yards, has more quirks than Woody Allen, but after a bunch of plays, you start to learn the tricks, and it becomes great fun.  If you looked at the course with any architectural eye, you'd walk back to your car from the first fairway...

As for #4 at Bandon, I spoke to Ryan about why he views it as a great hole.  For him, his length adds a strategic element to the tee ball, thus both shots are very mentally (and physically) stimulating.  For me, the tee shot is a "find the fairway" shot with a driver or 3w, much less exciting.  The hole for me begins when I'm in the fairway, or at least after I chipped out of the fescue.  :)  I agree the second shot is all-world, but for the 250-hitter, the tee shot isn't that exciting.

It's not a very revolutionary idea, but it's interesting to explore that every hole is different for each mind's eye.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 12:15:19 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 12:14:48 PM »
Tom,

No bitterness, please.  I was well aware that you and your group have been checking the weather.  I added the details just for the benefit of other readers.  I know what it's like to have a trip to Bandon substantially rained on.  Of course, when it happened to me, it was in September and it was 60s and rain, not 40s.  

I do recall the conversations about Bandon in February.  I'm sure there are great spells, but I too was skeptical.  I decided to wait and see how your trip went. ;)  Best of luck to you and your group.  
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 12:17:15 PM by Tim Pitner »

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 12:19:39 PM »
Tom,

No bitterness, please.  I was well aware that you and your group have been checking the weather.  I added the details just for the benefit of other readers.  I know what it's like to have a trip to Bandon substantially rained on.  Of course, when it happened to me, it was in September and it was 60s and rain, not 40s.  

I do recall the conversations about Bandon in February.  I'm sure there are great spells, but I too was skeptical.  I decided to wait and see how your trip went. ;)  Best of luck to you and your group.  

Tim - fully understood - my bitterness is not directed at you, of course.  But those who trumpeted the greatness of Bandon in winter should fear my wrath next weak if that forecast proves to be correct.

 ;D ;D

Brad:  that's a damn fine explanation, works for me.  Didn't someone say it's a big beautiful golf world with room for one and all?   ;)

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 12:21:12 PM »
The par 4 1st at Machrihanish -- lots of eye-candy, great setting, a wonderful cape-like diagonal drive over the ocean, made all the more strategic by a series of small bunkers on the far side of the fairway that threaten a drive carried too far.

There are at least five par 4s on the front nine at Machrihanish that are better holes. Better green complexes, more invigorating terrain, tougher approach shots, more strategic decisions.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 12:38:25 PM »
Casting around the British and Irish links courses there are very few on which the sea (or ocean) is strategically a factor.  Machrihanish 1st, Royal Porthcawl opening sequence, Ballybunion Old (particularly 11th), 5th green at Royal Portrush come to mind, and 12th at Porthmadog is a little gem played over the beach.  There are bound to be many others which I have forgotten.  However, on a great number of our links courses you may not even see the sea, Royal Lytham being a prime example.  

Yet the sea's influence is there in the frequent changes of wind direction and strength with changes of tide.  On some seaside courses it is claimed that the speed of the greens changes with the tide.  

With moves afoot to open up all our shoreline to the public I fear that many seaside holes will have to be altered so that play is not alongside or towards a public right-of-way.  There is just such an example at my club, Conwy.  The 3rd is a short par 4 played parallel to the coastal path, which is a popular walk for tourists and locals alike.  The original championship tee had to be abandoned.  That called for a drive out over very rough ground to a fairway angled to the left, the coastal path on the right and the beach beyond being very much in range of a sliced drive or one hit too far.  Once upon a time you had to go onto the beach to play the shot, and you might have to play your 3rd from there, too.  Nowadays the coastal path and beyond are out-of-bounds for safety reasons and that tee has been abandoned, greatly simplifying the hole for competent players.  The rest of us continue (as Donald Steel said of us) to carry our own bunkers around with us and it is, for us, still a fun hole.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2007, 12:54:23 PM »

Tim - fully understood - my bitterness is not directed at you, of course.  But those who trumpeted the greatness of Bandon in winter should fear my wrath next weak if that forecast proves to be correct.
 

There is certainly some lovely weather "brewing" in the Pacific NorthWest...pardon the pun.   ;D


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2007, 01:02:58 PM »
I bought a new pair of sunglasses ...  8)
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2007, 01:04:45 PM »
I bought a new pair of sunglasses ...  8)

Me too!

TH, hoping that optomism reverses previous bad karma.

ps - Mike, there's a guy I'd like to introduce you to... goes by the moniker Bronco66 on broncohoops.com... you would seem to be kindred spirits.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:04:56 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2007, 01:16:58 PM »
Sorry my bad on this one...I just couldn't resist..

Here some positive karma for you guys, just like in Happy Gilmore:

"Block bad, embrace good, feel the flow..feel it Happy, feel it"


rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 01:27:38 PM »
Speaking of 11 at PD, is that too overlooked as a great short par 3 because it's the "easy" choice for the average joe?

In any wind except a headwind, that's got to be one of the hardest little greens to hit.


(And I don't know about you guys, but I'm wearing exactly what I wore to Stone Eagle at TKP-V)

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2007, 01:32:22 PM »
Speaking of 11 at PD, is that too overlooked as a great short par 3 because it's the "easy" choice for the average joe?

In any wind except a headwind, that's got to be one of the hardest little greens to hit.

It might well be.  No. 11 is the best par 3 on the course, IMHO.  I don't understand the love some people have for #17.  Against the wind, it's a bear of a hole and I regard it as a good hole, just not a great one.  Could it be that some people are overly enamored with the fact that it's a Redan?


Tom Huckaby

Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2007, 01:33:12 PM »
That's a damn good point re PD-11.  Well said.  Perhaps it is too obvious....

Interestingly, what I brought to TKP-V fit in a backpack/carry-on.  I feel like Zsa Zsa Gabor or something with all the luggage I've packed so far for this trip.

Uh oh... clouds are moving back in... strike that last part.  Change it to "me too, Ryan."
 ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2007, 01:47:51 PM »
I think 11 is an excellent hole, and it is a bear playing into the normal summer winds.  When I played it in October, it was playing at 123 yards from the whites.  I hit a 7 iron and barely made it to the green.

But I think you guys will be able to experience it downwind, so get the wedges ready.

My personal favorite par 3 at PD is number 14 though.  The way the green and tee box are stuck into the sides of the dunes combined with the massive bunker to the right, its just very cool.  And its one of the best views on the entire course.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2007, 02:19:06 PM »
I like 17.  It's a very tough hole at a penultimate point in the round, but the green is enormous.  To all you boys about to "vacation" up there, keep in mind that green is about 40 yards from front right to back left, and long in the chipping area is better than the fronting bunkers.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Ocean (and Being Clever)
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2007, 02:30:07 PM »
But I think you guys will be able to experience it downwind, so get the wedges ready.

Kalen -

The 5 times or so I have played the hole, it's been downwind.  It's no pushover, trust me.  I'd almost rather punch a 7 iron and be able to hold the green.  Our foursome hit 4 excellent shots and all of us were back edge or worse with sand wedges.

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