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Ulrich Mayring

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Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« on: February 18, 2007, 07:32:35 PM »
I vaguely remember Walter Travis mentioning something along the lines of "the ball should be limited, because we cannot make the courses longer every year". That must have been sometime between 1902 and 1910, when the Haskell ball was there to stay and other equipment advances were on the radar.

Unfortunately I couldn't find the actual reference. Does anyone else have something, even a later reference?

Ulrich
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Wayne_Kozun

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 07:44:05 PM »
What about Allan Robertson in around 1848 complaining about the gutta.
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Mike Hendren

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 07:49:45 PM »
Undoubtedly some short hitter.
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 07:50:24 PM »
Yes, but the reason he complained was that he feared for his business of making featheries. If you will he is a precursor to today's industry giants threatening the USGA and R&A with lawsuits like Ping did about the grooves.

What I mean was that somebody realized that the longer hitting players would compromise the shot values of the courses. I believe the Golden Age principle of "Defend par at the Green" was invented because of this debate.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 07:53:05 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
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RSLivingston_III

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 08:34:34 PM »
Check out Vardon. He discusses the move to standardize the gutty as a competition ball in "How to Play Golf" pg.15.
Or are you interetested in quotes that leaad up to the 1921 dial-back?
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TEPaul

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2007, 08:52:16 PM »
We think we're in a distance crisis today due to the ball???

The shock of the Haskell ball was probably ten times worse and ten times more discussed.
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RSLivingston_III

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2007, 09:13:33 PM »
There could be a comparison to the Haskell if there was actually a discussion about the current problem with the modern ball. Until the majority of golfers are even aware there is a problem, let alone discussion of potential changes, it is a moot (edited) point to make comparisons with the early balls.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 09:27:35 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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TEPaul

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2007, 09:16:58 PM »
Ralph:

Would that be a mute point or a moot point----or perhaps both?  ;)
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RSLivingston_III

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2007, 09:26:24 PM »
Guess I need spell check......
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2007, 07:59:39 AM »
In Geoff Shackleford's Lines of Charm book I found this quote from Herbert Fowler, which is pretty much what I am looking for thematically:

Quote
Now that the ball-makers have successfully ruined most of our leading courses, it remains for the golf architects to so design the greens that they shall be both difficult of access and that the putting shall demand care and skill in judging slopes and undulations.

This is more or less the definition of "Defend Par at the Green". Unfortunately Geoff Shackleford doesn't reference the quotes in his books, that's why I'm asking here...

Ulrich
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 08:00:48 AM by Ulrich Mayring »
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JohnV

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 08:45:14 AM »
I just finished reading John Low's "Concerning Golf" written in 1903 in which he laments the new Haskell ball vs the old guttie and how it has made everyone a long hitter.   He says it has taken away the skill of driving the ball and means that everyone is hitting irons to the green instead of woods.

Sounded vaguely familiar to me. ;)
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TEPaul

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 09:03:54 AM »
JohnV:

If we are going to compare the concerns over the haskell ball with whatever distance problems we have today, there're a couple of things that should be pointed out:

1. Back just after the turn of the century there were no standards on balls and equipment regarding distance.

2. The Haskell was an initial concern to a relatively small group of tournament players but in retrospect the introduction of the Haskell ball was credited with massively popularizing the game of golf in America.

There is no question at all, though, none, that the Haskell ball's distance definitely obsoleted a good number of very early golf courses and forced clubs to move. Merion is a perfect example of a move that was primarily the result of concern over the increased distance of the Haskell ball and how it had obsoleted Merion's former course.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 09:06:31 AM by TEPaul »
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JohnV

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2007, 10:11:27 AM »
Tom,

I agree with your points.

How did that new course at Merion turn out? ;)
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Guy Phelan

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2007, 10:49:01 AM »
Quote from: Ralph_Livingston on February 18, 2007, 08:34:34 PM
Check out Vardon. He discusses the move to standardize the gutty as a competition ball in "How to Play Golf" pg.15.
Or are you interetested in quotes that leaad up to the 1921 dial-back?


Vardon was well spoken on this subject and in conjunction with other current threads, was he not a "prophet?" The golf ball should be standardized for the tour players. Allow us amateurs to use any ball we like, but place 1 ball in the tour professionals hands. We would then not be having discussions about the architectural "giants" such as Merion being potentially obsolete.
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tlavin

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2007, 10:56:17 AM »
O.B. Keeler wrote an article in 1925 that advocated rolling back the "modern" golf ball and said that pretty soon they would "be playing on 7000 yard golf courses" unless something was done.  This is an old tune and the Luddites, it seems, never win.
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TEPaul

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2007, 11:28:26 AM »
"How did that new course at Merion turn out?   :)"


JV:

According to some revolutionary new research from the West Coast it apparently turned out rather well since Macdonald designed it for Hugh Wilson and his Committee.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2007, 11:30:12 AM »
A buddy of mine has been requesting that I "roll the ball back" every time he misses a put for several years.......
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ForkaB

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2007, 02:12:25 PM »
Quote from: Wayne_Kozun on February 18, 2007, 07:44:05 PM
What about Allan Robertson in around 1848 complaining about the gutta.

Wayne

Alan didnae only complain in 1848, he fired his assistant (Old Tom Morris) when he caught him playing a guttie on the Old Course.  It may have had something to do with the fact that Alan had a virtual monopoly on the featherie business at the time........
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Garland Bayley

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2007, 03:13:42 PM »
When we did our two on one drill in basketball, the coach asked us to roll back the ball.
 ;D
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Wayne_Kozun

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Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2007, 03:31:05 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on February 19, 2007, 02:12:25 PM
Alan didnae only complain in 1848, he fired his assistant (Old Tom Morris) when he caught him playing a guttie on the Old Course.  It may have had something to do with the fact that Alan had a virtual monopoly on the featherie business at the time........
I have seen the following quote attributed to him, regarding playing with a gutta 'It's nae gowff'
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Alfie

Re:Who said it first: Roll back the Ball
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2007, 06:42:15 PM »
Ullrich,

Not the first raise awareness of the ball problem, but certainly one of the most distinguished - Max Behr ! You're probably aware of the article written by Behr (The Ball Problem, 1927) posted on this website in the "In My Opinion" page, but I still think his last paragraph is well worth posting on this thread ;

The problem of the ball is the most serious that golf has ever been faced with. It is one that our authorities must solve successfully. And while they are about it, the question before the golfers of the world is plain as a pike-staff. Are they going to be sportsmen and accept a ball that requires skill to propel, or, in their infantile worship of mere distance, are they going to continue to be downright game-hogs?

                                                       Max Behr.

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