I know this will piss people off but AS may well be the very best architectural design of all from the RGD folks.  From a variation standpoint it beats all including PD, Barnbougle and   Stonewall.  AS's drive and approach values, green complex interest, rhythm, cohesiveness and theme are all near perfect.

I'm no expert but I have played nearly 1000 courses around the world and 90% of Tommy's layouts - I respect AS as much as any of the others.

We all love to play well conditioned courses.  AS has suffered in this area.  Close you eyes to this category and AS has few modern equals.

JC

A friend and I played Apache Stronghold in late November on a cold and breezy day.

Because it was in the middle of the week and there were only a few people on the tee sheet, the pro essentially tried to shut down the course. At first he said the superintendent instructed him to do it, and when we asked to speak to the GM he said she was too busy talking on the phone. Of course we waited for her to finish her call, informed her that we had paid for the lodging/golf in advance, had come all the way from TX, etc. and she allowed us to play.

We were the only 2 people on the course the entire day (which in itself was a great experience!).

The course itself was surprisingly wet, which was actually a good thing because the wind effectively narrowed the landing areas quite a bit. The turf was in pretty good shape and the green speeds were decent, but there were a couple of greens (#8, #10) that were pretty spotty. Overall, though, it was well worth what we spent to play there.

Bill,
The greens were fairly quick but not so much that putts would get away from you. A nice speed for making a ton of putts as long as you could get the reads right (which wasn't easy).

I agree--a surprisingly easy walk and a pleasant one at that.

Guys please help me out here - I've played the place no less than three times -- and while I do respect the wherewithal to turn around the place -- the bar for SERIOUS improvement is not whether or not grass is growing. I guess when one hits rock botton -- any movement is then deemed to be seen as a incredible turn around.

That kind of "spin control" is really low -- too low in my mind.

I too enjoy what AS provides but until it can reach a steady and consistent level for more than a limited period than in my mind the course is still languishing.

I used to give passes to courses with the following statements, "Great layout but ..."

No more.

Conditioning is not a primary consideration for course evaluation but it cannot be dismissed as nothing more than window dressing.

The bar for AS is to achieve consistent and day-to-day maintenance that brings to life the solid design aspects the course has. If and when that happens the rest of its reputation will garner the appropriate fanfare from my corner.

End of story.

Kyle,

Sounds like heaven?  Didn't you read Matt Ward's post?  

"The bar for AS is to achieve consistent and day-to-day maintenance that brings to life the solid design aspects the course has. If and when that happens the rest of its reputation will garner the appropriate fanfare from my corner."

Come on, he's played the course no LESS than three times.  How about no more than?  That's the number we're all waiting breathlessly for, Matt  

It is nothing with out garnering his appropriate fanfare from his corner (is that where he keeps his stool and duncecap?) That's the "End Of Story."  

I happen to be sitting in an ideal seat to witness your pompous nature.  It doesn't matter if I never played golf a day in my life.  I still would recognize that you cannot enter a discussion without proclaiming the number of rounds you've played as if that entitles you to expert credentials.  Who cares if you played the course no less than three times or no less than three hundred?  There is no a priori reason your opinion is more valuable than anyone else that's played there.  Stop self-promoting and give us some insights on the course and not your belt notches.

Most of your posts of late are how everyone on this website worships at the alter of the favorite sons while only you see through the hype and get the big picture and appreciate the work of other lesser known talents.  We get it, Matt.  You think highly of yourself and lowly of most others.  No need to keep shoving it down our throats.  Many of us do not have the luxury or time to travel as much as you do.  It is not an artifact of worshiping a few architects as much as managing limited time and resources.  You constantly make that misjudgment.  If you could see past most of your generalizations, you would see they aren't that accurate but a convenient way of putting people down and building yourself up.  

Frankly, I truly believe Matt has a lot to offer as regards a discussion on architecture.  The maintenance is also important but this is a golf architecture website.  Is it just money that is needed to set up a successful maintenance program at AS or is there something inherently wrong with the site and/or construction?  

Now back to this interesting thread.  I will refrain from anymore Matt Ward bashing.  Sorry about that--I needed my quarterly fix.  I welcome Jonathan's further reasoning and also more about your thoughts on the architecture as well, Matt.  Its better than hearing your thoughts about you.  

Matt:

I write this as the electronic version of a friend (given we have never met).  You and I have battled from time to time for sure on different issues, but one thing I have always kept as sacred is you do know your stuff.  Your experience level is unparalleled and your ways of explaining things are pretty damn good too.  I trust your opinions of golf courses damn near absolutely; something I would say about precious few others in here.

BUT....

the proper answer to Wayne by you should have been:


Touche.  Let's get back to talking about the course.


Because while Wayne's words were harsh, I also think his main point was correct.  You do seem to have the crusade going on that he mentions, and you do seem to like to point out your superior experience level whenever possible.

And to me that detracts from your otherwise damn fine takes on things.

Take this or leave it.  But this is my honest opinion.

Now back to AS.  I still wonder if it's worth the trip out there for one who's joy in all of this is 99% playing the game, 1% seeing fine "architecture."  Are the conditions finally back up to snuff such that playing the game one doesn't focus constantly on THAT?

TH

Jay:  brass tacks.  Say one has one chance to go to Phoenix area, may not go back for several years if ever.  But one's take on things is as I said in the post to Matt - 99% playing the game, 1% studying fine architecture.

You have two golf days max - three nights.  Ie arrive on a Fri night, leave on a Sunday night.

Is it worth devoting 1 or 1.5 days to Apache Stronghold, the way things are as you saw them, or even a bit improved as the reports are now?

Cary - thanks for the frank take.  So I assume you'd advise my hypothetical golfer to wait until AS gets more playable conditions....

Cary - thanks for the frank take.  So I assume you'd advise my hypothetical golfer to wait until AS gets more playable conditions....

Correct

It's in Globe?  Stayed there 20 months ago on a scenic route from Grand Canyon to Phoenix.  There's not much to do in Globe, it has to be said.  I'm not surprised that course there isn't in the peak of condition - it'll fit the town.

Wayne...off the top of my head there's a great biarritz, a solid redan and a good punchbowl.

Cary, by any chance were you there before me?  Prior to Jan of 2006?  Or after? I did hear things are getting incrementally better...

Tom, look if I had three rounds in the Greater Phoenix area, I'd probly take it easy on the driving and stay in town, but if I had five rounds, I'd go play it...but the ONLY reason I say that is the conditioning...strictly form a design standpoint, I think AS is better than we-ko-pa cholla and TSN, but the two hour drive and the spartan conditions detract a little.  Personally, I like We-ko-pa the most in the area.  I also have a soft spot for the Pinnacle Course at Troon, Boulders South and Ventana Canyon.

I have not yet played the saguaro.