[Nick Church]

Given one chance to play in the Scottsdale area, where would you go?

I've looked at the rankings in Golfweek, but cannot decide.  I leave in a couple weeks for a lesson on Friday, with Saturday wide open.  My flight back to Nashville is early Sunday.  So it's one day only for a 18 holes (given that it looks like around will be $200+ in March).

My instinct is We Ko Pa, either course.  I'm just not certain.

I believe the collective education and experience of the GCA is better equipped the indentify the best course to play in Scottsdale.    I'm hoping the older, wiser brothers of this golf fraternity house can point a pledge in the right direction.

Thanks for the opinions, one and all.

Nick

[Steve_ Shaffer]

WeKoPa peak rates are $195. For $70 at golfnow.com you can play Vista Verde(See thread below with pics)

Both courses are housing free with good scenic views. WeKoPa has a clubhouse. Vista Verde does not. If the $125 difference isn't meaningful, your instinct may be right.

 

[Andy Troeger]

Nick,
Best public that I've played in the area is Vista Verde, see the current thread here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27856

I've not played either course at We-Ko-Pa. I've played Estrella Mountain Ranch, Talking Stick North, and SunRidge Canyon from the GW list. Vista Verde was my favorite of the bunch, and Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain was next.

VV will save you some $$ too if that's a concern.

[Nick Church]

I figure I got my money's worth at Pebble finally (last year), what's a few more hundred after my Friday lesson.

I had not heard of Vista.  I'm off to learn & read.

[jmorrison]

The Raven at Verrado is very very good. Designed by Tom Lehman and is located at the foothills of White Tank Mountains. I played it two years ago after it just opened and the conditioning was spectaclar, I can only imagine how good it is now. Don't exactly know the cost as we were comped because we were building a golf course for Lehman Design and Intrawest.

[rjsimper]

Nick -

How much of a concern or factor is price?  I have not played We-Ko-Pa but many here hold it in high regard.

I can second jmorrison's suggestion of the Raven at Verrado.  However, it's a little outside the "Beltway" toward LA, and it's not on the level of some of the top-flight courses around.  I, too, played it 2 years ago and they'd graded lots for homes.  I can only imagine many have been built and have taken away from what was a really great place.  Still, Verrado is a good value and offers meals and unlimited golf with their fees.

If you want true "Scottsdale-style Desert Golf" then most will probably say that We-Ko-Pa is your ticket.  If you want something unique and of unique architectural merit, Talking Stick North is another popular one.  

[jmorrison]

Those dam homes

[Nick Church]

Price is not much of a concern.  I've saved up, what's few dollars more.

Can anyone expound on Talking Stick?  I see it in Google Maps, but don't know much else.

Thanks again, all.

[Jim Sweeney]

Nick:

I don't know Vista Verde but others on here rave about it.

If you have time for 36, Talking Stick and We-Ko-PA Suguaro would be a great and do-able combo, interesting because they are both Coore/Crenshaw yet different in feel.

Talking Stick is very good. Flatter and wider than Suguaro, more options (though Suguaro has plenty), and a little closer in, though not much.

The two courses are no more than 20 minutes apart.

Both facilities have 36. If I were to play both courses on one property in a day, I'd pick We-Ko-Pa.

Raven at Verrado is also good with stunning views of the valley. It is in the foothills of the White Tank Mountains in the far western edge of the valley, an hour's drive from Scottsdale at least, depending on traffic. When I played the price was reasonable (<$100.00) but that was two years ago.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Nick

I don't know how often you visit Scottsdale but one thing to consider is that Vista Verde is housing free now. WeKoPa and Talking Stick will always be housing free as they are on Indian land. If you return next year,the development of Vista Verde may have started.

Raven at Verrado is about 45-60 minutes from Scottsdale and,although very good, is a step below  WeKoPa, Talking Stick and Vista Verde.

Steve

[Andy Troeger]

Nick,
For what its worth, here's one person that wasn't overly enamored with Talking Stick North. Its good and there is strategy and options, but I found it repetitive and don't understand what is unique about it. The nice thing is that it accommodates all levels of player through its width and general lack of forced carries that are prevalent in AZ. However, I didn't feel like there was much that I had not seen before.

Its worth seeing if you have more than one day, but Vista Verde has all the strategy along with some actual terrain and views. JMO.

[Bill_McBride]

Talking Stick North is often referred to as the best example of outstanding golf architecture on a completely flat piece of land.

There are a number of central hazards, including the splendid #12's split fairway.  An arroyo divides small left fairway from huge right fairway, but from the safe right side, the approach must safely carry the arroyo and hold the green at its narrower dimension with OB directly behind.  Don't ask me how I know that OB is a factor.  

I agree TSN gets perhaps a bit mundane in the back and forth holes after #12.

Since it is dead flat, TSN is the best walking course in the area, and you can walk any time you want.

The new C&C at We-ka-po sounds terrific although I haven't played it yet.  Others think the original course at We-ka-po is walkable but I sure didn't think it was.  I was part of two couples so cheerfully rode.

[Jason Topp]

If you have not experienced one of the prototypical minimalist courses (Rustic Canyon, Wild Horse, Sutton Bay, Sand Hills, etc), I would  play We-Ko-Pa Saguaro.  

These types of courses are unique, praised on this site and extremely popular with even non GCA people I have been around.  

The only other possibility in the area is Talking Stick North.  While Talking Stick is an accomplishment on a dead flat piece of property, We Ko Pa has better terrain.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason - I have no dog in this - I've been to the area twice in my life and haven't played many courses - I just have to ask if your advice changes if price is factored in.

That is, is W-K-P Saguaro worth $125 more than Vista Verde?

Assume it's for someone for whom a splurge on golf means $125 for a round... and $200 or more means once every couple years.

Just curious.

[Jason Topp]

Jason - I have no dog in this - I've been to the area twice in my life and haven't played many courses - I just have to ask if your advice changes if price is factored in.

That is, is W-K-P Saguaro worth $125 more than Vista Verde?

Assume it's for someone for whom a splurge on golf means $125 for a round... and $200 or more means once every couple years.

Just curious.

Tom - I did not play Vista Verde but wanted to on my last trip.  Nick has indicated that he has saved up some money so this will be a big splurge to have a unique memorable golf experience.

Using those parameters, I would recommend playing We Ko Pa because it will allow him to experience that type of course in a public setting.  

While I am sure Vista Verde is a terrific golf course and may well be a better course than We Ko Pa (especially including price considerations) I would recommend that any fan of GCA experience one of these minimalist courses because they are so different from what most people typically play.  

If one is looking for the best value for the money, I would definitely consider Vista Verde, as well as many others in the area.

[Jon Spaulding]

Very limited experiences in the area, but an opinion:

I was relatively pleased with the "old" course at We-Ko-Pa. The hotel there is a dump, but relatively inexpensive.

If money is free-flowing, head up to the 4 seasons and stay/play Troon North. I've only played the Monument course and enjoyed it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason - got it - perfect explanation.  I guess the analagous situation near us would be Spyglass at $250 or Pacific Grove Muni at $50.  The latter might be more pure fun and is certainly a way better bang for the buck; the former just plain does need to be experienced at least once just because it's so different and so cool.  Of course this is stretching the analogy way too far... but I see a little of that going on in what you say.  And it makes perfect sense.

[Nick Church]

Thanks all.

I do have the splurge, once-in-a-lifetime experience in mind.  I doubt I will make it back to Arizona any time soon.

It's possible I could combine Vista Verde into a 36 hole single day jaunt.

I'm leaning We Ko Pa Saguro, because after all my time here at GCA (yes, I know I read more than post, but you guys are know more), I think I finally need to experience Coore & Crenshaw in person!

[John Kavanaugh]

Nick,

Based on everything you have said I would prefer you go play We-Ko-Pa and maybe catch Vista Verde on another trip.  I'd hate to see you out there thinking about what you might have missed without seeing it firsthand.

[Nick Church]

To Mr. Huckaby's point --- I do regret not playing Pacific Grove last Labor Day.  I drove by it and it looked as fun as advertised here.

God willing, I will make that trip again.

Jason - got it - perfect explanation.  I guess the analagous situation near us would be Spyglass at $250 or Pacific Grove Muni at $50.  The latter might be more pure fun and is certainly a way better bang for the buck; the former just plain does need to be experienced at least once just because it's so different and so cool.  Of course this is stretching the analogy way too far... but I see a little of that going on in what you say.  And it makes perfect sense.

[Tom Dunne]

Jon Spaulding, are you referring to the Radisson that opened in late 2005? I didn't think it was a dump at all. It's not the Phoenician or anything, but I thought they were perfectly pleasant digs for a traveling golfer.

[Tom Huckaby]

Nick - well, there are differing ways to look at this, and it's been discussed in here many times... But if you played Pebble and Spyglass on your trip here and missed Pacific Grove Muni, you have a small regret for sure.  But if you did it the other way around, your regrets would be huge.  Of course the latter way is a better way to ensure a return trip...  

[John Kavanaugh]

Just keep in mind that in that the possibility does exist that Vista Verde is a better course than We-Ko-Pa regardless of price.  The same can not be said of Pacific Grove and Pebble.

[Nick Church]

Just keep in mind that in that the possibility does exist that Vista Verde is a better course than We-Ko-Pa regardless of price.  The same can not be said of Pacific Grove and Pebble.

Believe me all the Vista Verde talk has me intrigued.

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree here, if you can play pebble, spyglass, or spanish bay, and have the means to do so, they are better options that Pacific Grove.

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