[Jfaspen]

I fell into a conversation with some people at work about golf courses today and ANGC came up..  

Thinking through the course, the changes it has gone through recently, the way the changes have impacted the Masters, although the front 9 may now be more mundane, I think the back 9 still has plenty of character.

10-Demanding tee shot, bonus for working the ball the correct way off of the tee.  Difficult area around the green.
11-Hampered by the new trees, but still a thrilling approach shot

10 and 11 provide a worthy start where the leader hopes to make 2 pars and get to the conquerable part of the course.

12-Perhaps the most precise tee shot in golf.  Arguably more so than the 17th at TPC Sawgrass.  Difficult to guage the wind, small landing area, pivotable point in the round.

13-The big reason why I feel the back 9 is superior is are the par 5's and the way they appear to play.  Although unlikely, almost anyone contending for the lead on sunday could make 2 eagles on the back 9.  We all remember Phil and Ernie trading eagles on the back 9 a few years ago.  Yet this hole provides penalties if you miss the fairway and a green challenging enough that the world #1 putted off of it.

14- No bunkers.  A birdie hole sandwiched inbetween 2 par 5's.

15-Another reachable par 5.  Again, a treacherous approach shot, the ultimate in risk/reward.  

16-I love this par 3 because I think the water comes into play, but the great shots on this hole are the players hitting it into that one spot in the green which then feeds the balls towards the flags.  I loved seeing 2 aces in a row a few years back..  I also love that a long shot (like tigers 2 years ago) should mean death, but recovery is possible.

17-18 Worthy finishers for a championship.  Demanding par 4's which don't take birdie out of play, but also only reward a player who can keep his wits.

I know, I know.. I've just taken perhaps the most celebrated 9 holes in golf and said they're still great.. Perhaps I just wanted to type out the reasons why I find them still great.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

jeff

[Andy Doyle]

Jeffrey:

No argument with your comments about the back 9, but what do you think about the front 9 is mundane?

The back 9 has all the azaleas and provides some great TV drama, but the front 9 has some of the most demanding and interesting holes on the course.

Andy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

The back nine remains an exciting test.

Alot depends on the weather.

There's been a trend toward fast & firm, which makes the course play difficult around the greens, and, makes it more difficult to keep the ball in the fairway.

I'm not so sure that # 14 is a birdie hole.

When you add # 9 to the mix, that's a pretty good 10 hole finish.

Hopefully, Mother Nature will co-operate and we'll have another great tournament.

[John Kavanaugh]

When you add # 9 to the mix, that's a pretty good 10 hole finish.

Why stop at #9 when #8 is a great par five with excitement built right in it.

[Bill_McBride]

The Sunday pin placements make all the difference.  For a couple of years the committee placed them in very difficult locations, then they went back to the old Sunday pins for the past couple of years and the back nine has once again been a thrill ride with lots of birdies, eagles and the occasional bogey or double.

Remember the year Vijay won?  That was probably the most boring Masters ever, the committee was "protecting par."  

[Dan Herrmann]

Let's look at the front 9:
1 - a LONG uphill par 4 with trouble left.  
2 - a wonderfully shaped green that dares the player to go for it in two.  Doom awaits those that try and fail.
3 - a fantastic short par 4 with an extremely difficult green
4 - I still don't know how the competitors can get the ball to the upper right with that bunker staring them down.  (The only hole with a palm tree at AGNC, by the way)
5 - Danger left.  Danger right.  Get a par and run
6 - My favorite par 3.  Too much spin and you're off the green.
7 - Narrow and a green surrounded by bunkers.  To a handicap golfer, this hole would be extremely difficult
8 - Wow - you have no idea how much uphill this hole is.  And what a green.
9 - Back to the clubhouse - to me, perhaps the weakest hole architecturally on the front 9.

Yep - the front 9 is damn good too...

[Patrick_Mucci]

When you add # 9 to the mix, that's a pretty good 10 hole finish.

Dan,

I don't see # 9 as a weak hole, "architecturally"

The topography is great and the green and surrounds terrific.

Why stop at #9 when #8 is a great par five with excitement built right in it.


I wouldn't agree with that assessment.
I don't think # 8 is a "great" par 5.

[JESII]

From the seat I have every year it seems like a pretty awesome 18 hole finish...

[Phil Benedict]

This is a minor point but in one thread Tom Doak said he wasn't fond of the 18th but he never elaborated on his reasons for disliking the hole.  Seems like a long uphill slog but that's not really surprising given the terrain and the fact that the clubhouse is on high ground.  Club selection for the big hitters just amazes me for an uphill 465 yard hole.  Tiger in '05 - 3-wood/8 iron; Lefty in '04 3-wood/6-iron. Does it really play as long as the card?

[Walt_Cutshall]

This is a little off topic, but interesting, I think. A couple days ago, I watched a reply of the 2001 Masters. It was a tournament with Tiger, Duval, Mickelson and a couple other big names in contention. I was shocked at the way that all these players were overpowering the golf course. Tiger hit 8 irons into 11, 13 and 15 (and I don't think he hit drivers off the tees either). Duval had 101 yards into the 18th green. All three of them were hitting very short irons into the greens on the back nine. The tournament was very much a putting contest, with Duval missing several makeable putts on the way in to let Tiger off the hook.

In retrospect, I think I like the way AN plays today. I think the changes to the course (especially the back 9) have raised the importance of strategy and shotmaking, and reduced the emphasis on putting (well at least as much as you can at AN). IMO, the Masters does a pretty good job of identifying the player with the best skills.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is a minor point but in one thread Tom Doak said he wasn't fond of the 18th but he never elaborated on his reasons for disliking the hole.  

Seems like a long uphill slog but that's not really surprising given the terrain and the fact that the clubhouse is on high ground.

Does it really play as long as the card ?

YES

But, weather and ground conditions play a substantive factor.[/color]

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
My comments on 8 and 9 come from walking the course twice.  Obviously, that's not enough to really know what's happening out there  

Thanks for the corrections

[Guy Phelan]

15-Another reachable par 5.  Again, a treacherous approach shot, the ultimate in risk/reward.  

Jeff,

When I played this hole a couple of years ago and saw how wonderful and inviting that second shot is down the hill, my mind wandered back to 1986. Seve was right there with Jack and he went for this green in two. No big deal. But the situation and the look must have gotten him pretty darn good, as he hit that pathetic iron shot into the left side of the pond. The cheeers went up and it was the unraveling of Seve. This is just one of many memories we have of this great risk/reward hole.

Thanks for this thread

Guy

[Tom Zeni]

#14 a Birdie hole   Why, because it doesn't have any bunkers?

I can tell you, I've been to AN 9 times and what you have at #14 is a triple tiered green that has been described as trying to stop a golf ball going down mable steps. As you know, it's a 2nd shot course, and position on the green is vital, none more so than #14.  Par is a good score.

[TEPaul]

It's great alright. The only back nine I can think of that's greater is Fernandina Beach Municipal G.C.

[Tom Zeni]

As for the Front 9....

Let's look at the front 9:
1 - It has been lengthened to the point of almost being in front of Eisenhower's cabin.

2 - Even with the added length, the pro's mostly own this hole, unless your name is David Duval.

3 - To my thinking, arguably the most difficult green on the course. It's small, irregualar shaped, with a plateau to boot.

4 - I have photos of that Palm Tree! A horizontal green, a tee box that has been significantly moved back,  but the bunker really doesn't come into play. These guys are good.

5 - A raised nose in the fore of the green makes it appear an elephant is buried there. But if Nicklaus can eagle it twice in one tournament, it's doable.

6 - Solid hole, no doubt about it. Watching the shots soar across the azaleas into a backdrop of white flowering dogwoods to the green below, is pure beauty to the eye.  BTW, All the par 3's are strong.

7 - They've added length at the tee, and provided the green with a 4th pin placement.

8 - Play the slope to the left of the green, and watch it filter to the hole. Save Greg Norman, this is a birdie hole.

9 - Architecturally,this is a weak hole. With only the slope and speed of the green as it's saving grace, I've never much cared for it. If it wasn't for the grandeur of the course, the style would be a hole you'd find on many a public muni that is short on space.

BTW, by moving the 11th to left and adding trees and mounding, they've taken #11 away from the spectator's view until the 2nd shot. And, I've been railing about the grandstands to the right of the 15th green that block out the beauty of the 16th's hillside and green. While they are accomdating greater crowds, it's a blight on the property.  For one,  people sit there for only a short period of time because the afternoon sun bakes directly on them. And two, nothing on the course is more fun than sitting behind the right-side "bail out" bunker at the 15th and yelling... INCOMING!

[Tom Zeni]

As for the 18th being long and uphill, it is, but like walking down the adjacent 10th, it's a graduated climb, not a rope climbing adventure as you might think.

The old 18th, was a wonderful finishing hole, until Tiger et al began hitting wedges into it. The added length is nothing more than a funny car track set behind the 17th. All that's needed are flashing red, yellow and green lights to signify that it's okay to swing. There are towers and camera placement behind and to the side of this chute that lend to it's ugly appearance.

But, since we live a world of technological advances, and given the convergence of three holes and sloped terrain in that area of the course, not much else they could do.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Zemi,

The bottom line is that it's a great golf course.

Any tee shot on # 9 that doesn't make it to the bottom of the hill is left with an awkward lie to a difficult green.

I don't view the hole as weak.

I don't think the golf course has a weak hole, some are just easier than othes.

[Gary Daughters]

#9 to my mind is a very strong hole.  The approach to a treacherous green (ask Greg Norman) may come from any and all sorts of lies.  The Euros, for their shotmaking abilities, seem to perform well on this hole.

I might be able to argue that #18 is the weakest hole on the course.  Just don't ask me to.

[Phil Benedict]

I might be able to argue that #18 is the weakest hole on the course.  Just don't ask me to.

Why do you think 18 is weak? It's so famous and I only know it from tv. I know you don't want to answer this question, but dare to be great!  

[Dan Herrmann]

18 is weak?

I'll bet most amateurs wouldn't even get close to hitting their tee shot even 3/4 of the way up that hill.  Plus, those greenside bunkers are a lot more menacing looking in person than on TV.

When I watched the practice rounds in '05, Tiger spent about 20 minutes on and around 18 green.   Lots of subtle features there.

[Chris Cupit]

Gary,

Did you mean weak as in easy or weak as in not a great hole architecturally?

As far as difficulty goes, it's a bear now.  Pre 1967(?) when the fairway bunker(s) were not there and there were very few trees up the left side and almost none where the bunkers are now, it was far easier.  At 405 yards you could bomb it left well away from the woods on the right and still have a clear shot from the old driving range!

Today at 465 and with the bunkers added as well as a lot more trees, it's a very hard and scary tee shot.

[TEPaul]

I must say since they added length to #18 that left side fairway bunker does seem to be remarkably well positioned.

[Phil Benedict]

I must say since they added length to #18 that left side fairway bunker does seem to be remarkably well positioned.

Tiger, at least, takes 3-wood to lay up short of the bunker nowadays, whereas he tended to hit driver before they added the length.  Remember the bomb he hit in the last round the year he completed the Tiger Slam?  Inside of a 100 yards as I recall.  So the length has caused him to change tactics.  Even laying up short of the bunkers leaves him with 6 to 8-iron approach, which is better than a lob wedge I guess.

[Brent Hutto]

12-Perhaps the most precise tee shot in golf.  Arguably more so than the 17th at TPC Sawgrass.  Difficult to guage the wind, small landing area, pivotable point in the round.

In my opinion the biggest difference between the twelfth at Augusta and the seventeenth at Sawgrass is indeed its pivotal point in the round. A tee shot in the water (or lost ball over the green, god forbid) does not effectively end ones contention in The Masters, as it tends to at The Players. Rather, it ratchets up the need for heroics on 13, 15 and 16.

There also appear to be a wider range of "safety" options at the former, or maybe that's just from the point of view of a spectator rather than a player. Finally, it seems to me that a perfectly executed shot at the flag on Sunday leaves an easier birdie putt at Augusta's twelfth that at the seventeenth at Sawgrass.

Here's a question for those who have actually visited both courses. If you move up to the drop area after a ball in the water, which hole presents the easier spot to get up and down for bogey?

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