[Mike_Young]

or a $45,000 supt and a million dollar budget.
I take the $600000 budget with the $125000 guy anyday....as long as he has not been one of a group of 4 or 5 asst supts at a course with a 7 figure budget and a staff of 50.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

Am I in Sand Hills, NE (4 month season), Pebble Beach (12 month season, or Westchester, NY (9 month season)? The $45,000 super in Pebble might have to live in Bob Huntley's spare bedroom.

[Ken Fry]

Mike,

Then why do we see so many instances of the $45k position becoming more prevelant at so many clubs?

Ken

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, if I am the guy paying the bills, I will be very keen and predisposed to the $725K expenditure over a $1.025million expenditure, just about every time.  

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Then why do we see so many instances of the $45k position becoming more prevelant at so many clubs?

Ken

The CMAA.  Managers trained in F&B that feel they can show a board how to save money.....OH and just pure STUPIDITY via the committee route..

[Guy Phelan]

Mike,

Fairly simple answer to this one...save the money!

Guy

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Fairly simple answer to this one...save the money!

Guy

then why don't we see more of it....I promise you there are a lot of supts that would be glad to work on a $600,000 budget for $125,000 instead of having a million budget and less salry....AND you will get much more bang for your buck.....

[Guy Phelan]

Mike,

Fairly simple answer to this one...save the money!

Guy

then why don't we see more of it....I promise you there are a lot of supts that would be glad to work on a $600,000 budget for $125,000 instead of having a million budget and less salry....AND you will get much more bang for your buck.....

Mike,

I am just not sure how many opportunities there are with that budget and that salary for a the man in charge. Do you have any idea?

Guy

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

Then why do we see so many instances of the $45k position becoming more prevelant at so many clubs?

Ken

Ken,

I grew up playing Cobbs Creek and Avalon Golf Club, a Philly muni and a regular guy public on the Jersey Shore. I would be surprised if either of those has a $45,000 Super. Obviously my view is skewed living in the Northeast, but I would assume they would make more.

I know that the Assistant Teachers at my son's school would love to make $45,000 a year and my son's school is a 11 1/2 month program. If I told you the tuition at his school you would call me a liar.

Supers are the most important people at a golf club. I will take a Scott Ramsey at Yale anyday over C&C, Doak or Roger Rulewich. I will take a great Assistant Teacher all day long at my kids school. They are both underpaid however the people who do both jobs love their jobs and don't do it for money, and I for one do appreciate it.

In reference to Mike Young, Mike normally tries to take us to the basics of golf courses, but the reality is this group really only cares about 500 courses or so. Off line Kyle Harris and I agreed to play Lakerica (see the Florida thread) on my next trip to Mountain Lake, but in gereral I plead guilty to being "top heavy" of focusing on "great" courses.

I will say that I really appreciate Kyle being at Mountain Lake, and I know the Greens Chairman appreciates him too. When Kyle walks the course during a round with me, he is focused on how to make the course better not his game. We will lose Kyle someday due to money, a better opportunity for Kyle or a lack of single women in Lake Wales, Florida under the age of 60   . In the meantime, I do appreciate him, but unfortunately for him, I don't set salaries.

[JMorgan]

Qs: what does the 45K or 125K super spend most of his time doing, most time to least time?  
Are there regional differences?  International? Public v. private?

[Ken Fry]

Mike,

Then why do we see so many instances of the $45k position becoming more prevelant at so many clubs?

Ken

The CMAA.  Managers trained in F&B that feel they can show a board how to save money.....OH and just pure STUPIDITY via the committee route..

Mike,

I certainly can't argue with your CMAA comment.  I can't say too much as a past member of the PGA who are pushing hard to train its members in overal facility management.

One thing I have always respected of PGA is they know who the experts are in caring for the golf course and don't push to train their members to believe otherwise.

Ken

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  I look at this in 2 ways-If I were to make less, but have a bigger budget, to do more things with and have more options with, the opportunities and money will come down the road from that club or another.
 Or I could make $125000k, know that I'm taking up over 20% of my budget and at the end of the year when things get tight, know that that is partly my own fault.
  A rule of thumb, is MOST superintendents make 9-11% of the budget...most....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
  I look at this in 2 ways-If I were to make less, but have a bigger budget, to do more things with and have more options with, the opportunities and money will come down the road from that club or another.
 Or I could make $125000k, know that I'm taking up over 20% of my budget and at the end of the year when things get tight, know that that is partly my own fault.
  A rule of thumb, is MOST superintendents make 9-11% of the budget...most....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

I understand that side and know that many choose that route....nothing wrong with that....but there are more opportunities for the other route and you cannot look at it as though you took up that much of your budget...
I just received an IM from a gy who had a 1.6 budget paying $125,000 he went to a $300000 package supt and budget went to 1.25 mill and course is in mch better shape....I am saying the same thing just using different numbers....basically..a good supt is free...IMO

[Ken Fry]

I know that the Assistant Teachers at my son's school would love to make $45,000 a year and my son's school is a 11 1/2 month program. If I told you the tuition at his school you would call me a liar.

Mike,

I'm not sure what exactly an assitant teacher is, but would it be fair to classify them equally to an assistant supt?  In that case, not many assistants are making $45k either.

There are superintendents out there working at smaller budget courses making very little for the time they put in.  A true labor of love.

I understand Mike Young's line of thinking because many clubs have taken the path of eliminating experience, reputation and years of service from a seasoned supt. to slash the salary and bring in a younger supt.  There are very good young supt. out there and burned out older supt. so generalizations are always somewhat dangerous.

I read Mike's question to simply ask:  does a course take the experience or the lower salary to reach their goals?  Quite a few clubs are taking the later which is a sad statement.

[Mike Nuzzo]

....basically..a good supt is free...IMO

That is a great line.
I'm in agreement.

Seems like it is a perception problem - one of many.

Are good architects free too?

[JMorgan]

Qs: what would you say a super spends most of his time doing, 1 to 5?
Are there regional differences?  International? Public v. private?

And again, anyone?    Humor me.  IM me if you wish.  Just curious.  Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

James:

There are plenty of good superintendents looking here who can answer that question for you if you want.

One of the best greenkeepers I ever met (an old school guy) told me once that he spent 33% of his time most days going around the course and fine-tuning the irrigation clocks as the course reacted to the climate.  I haven't met anybody in a long time who shared that priority, but I suspect that's why most of the courses I see are overwatered.

[Tim Copeland]

Tom,

Most courses are overwatered because the super or his assts have OSMAC or other handheld controls.  They do not take the time to problem-spot....they just punch buttons and never check behind for the results of their efforts.

OSMAC(On-site management and Control...TORO Product) is also the reason many courses are rutted up during grow in.

As for the question Mike Young posed....I have seen $45,000 boys kill grass as well as $125,000 boys.....depends on the guy.  I DO agree that the guy needs to come from a course where he has had to work.....not be a problem spotter full time.

[mikes1160]

Tim,

While insulting a lot of superintendents, what factual data is your analysis based on?

Tom,

Most courses are overwatered because the super or his assts have OSMAC or other handheld controls.  They do not take the time to problem-spot....they just punch buttons and never check behind for the results of their efforts.

OSMAC(On-site management and Control...TORO Product) is also the reason many courses are rutted up during grow in.

As for the question Mike Young posed....I have seen $45,000 boys kill grass as well as $125,000 boys.....depends on the guy.  I DO agree that the guy needs to come from a course where he has had to work.....not be a problem spotter full time.

[Tim Copeland]

Tim,

While insulting a lot of superintendents, what factual data is your analysis based on?

Tom,

Most courses are overwatered because the super or his assts have OSMAC or other handheld controls.  They do not take the time to problem-spot....they just punch buttons and never check behind for the results of their efforts.

OSMAC(On-site management and Control...TORO Product) is also the reason many courses are rutted up during grow in.

As for the question Mike Young posed....I have seen $45,000 boys kill grass as well as $125,000 boys.....depends on the guy.  I DO agree that the guy needs to come from a course where he has had to work.....not be a problem spotter full time.

My factual data comes from being a laborer, 2nd asst superintendent, assistant superintendent, Project manager for Improvements, asst super for construction, and Superintendent for Construction of golf courses

If they are insulted...then it must be cutting to the bone.  Hopefully we are all grown men here and can handle the truth...at least it is the truth on the courses that I have been associated with.  That is all the data that I have collected over my 16 years in the business.  I have seen more than 4 superintendents stand at the irrigation control box and NEVER go check the area he was watering...or punch up the numbers and ride off on his cart.

Like Mike said...give me a guy that has not had his fairways and greens aerification contracted out......or a guy that has not had 30 guys on the staff....THAT is a guy to run your course.  Not a guy who never has the back of his truck get dirty.

Again......my data is limited....but nails on

[Joe Hancock]

Tim,

From a different perspective, I could also infer from your data that you have an uncanny knack of surrounding yourself with dumbasses.....I don't know how you possibly made it 16 years in the biz having to watch so much ineptitude.

I'm curious how Toro and their OSMAC product has been responsible for rutting on new grow-ins. My experience has been that with radio controlled irrigation, I can keep vehicles off from newly seeded areas, as I don't have to travel to irrigation satellites to run or program my over-applications of water.  

Joe

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

As an owner I want the best possible super I can afford.  He is in charge of (far and away) the most important asset I own and while I certainly do not want to throw away money, I believe in the long run it's "cheaper" to hire quality people at a higher wage than try and find someone willing to work for a lot less money.

BTW, in Atlanta among private clubs, there is no way you could find a qualified super for $45,000.  Maybe 60-65k.  At least where I am, if a supe came and was willing to work for 45, I'd be wary.

[Chris Cupit]

Whoops--I didn't answer your question--here's a non-answer--I'd take the $725,000 and spend $75-$85 on a super and the rest on maintenence.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tim,
  Nails on, huh....?I disagree with you almost 100%. Both courses that I been an assistant at have had radio controlled irrigation systems. I worked with both toro and rainbird. It's just another tool to be able to water, but in NO WAY is it the answer and by no MEAN does that mean that myself, or my interns are not hand watering. Because of the speratic soil conditions we have, we've  actually have fine tuned our system to the point where we have located all of our dry areas in fairways, certain tees, rough areas and just have a program for that, instead of having to run a complete fairway cycle. I think that you also FORGOT to include some of the positives of this system as well. But once again, though we have a system like this, it does not mean we don't hand water. WAY too broad of a statement on your part. In fact, since October, we've only run overhead irrigation once. We handwater all winter long because of cooler temps and lack of sunlight.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Chris Cupit]

Tim,

Could you IM me the names of the guys you worked for/with?

If I ever need a new super, I want to damn sure avoid those guys

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