[AndrewB]

What are some examples of architectural features so subtle that most golfers don't notice them, even after playing a course several times?  And, I am thinking of golfers like you and me: those that try to pay attention to these things.

Does the fact that players don't notice these features make them less or more valuable?  If they're not noticed, can they even be called "features"?

I don't have any examples to offer since, if I did, that would mean I noticed those features.  Perhaps this is a question targeted at the architects among us.

[Bill_McBride]

Tees that aren't aligned with the center of the fairway!

Bunkers that look like they are tight against the green but there's really 10 yards in there.

(It won't fool the guys with the Bushnells but might fool the luddites   )

[Geoffrey Childs]

(It won't fool the guys with the Bushnells but might fool the luddites   )

Are you really too lazy to find an irrigation head?  Your Bushnell comment is a sad one.  If you want yardage these days its available.  Irrigation heads, lasers, skycaddies or course yardage guides - its all the same information.  If you are fooled by a bunker that foreshadows a green on your home course then shame on you.

One sort of subtle feature that I like is a muffin or bump in a green that makes a two putt from the other side of it difficult.  When you combine this with a foreboding feature like a bunker the tendency is to avoid the bunker and play to the other side of the muffin when the up and down form the bunker is probably easier then the putt over the mound.

[Adam_F_Collins]

One of the things I have noticed (but only after repeated playing) is when the routing of holes changes direction to the compass (and the wind) and you don't notice it. These situations seem to require landforms which make judging the wind difficult as well.

[Tommy Williamsen]

We have a couple holes at Four Streams that are banked on the right side of the fairway and bunkered left front.  Most guys I play with do not take advantage of the possibility of running the ball up because they are so accustomed to flying the ball all the way to the hole.    

[CHrisB]

Greens that have been built to be difficult to read--for example when the architect tilts the green slightly against the natural lay of the land--can fool a golfer time after time until he finally figures out why he keeps missing putts.

We have a course here in central Texas that is notorious for how tricky the greens are to read. Once I finally figured out that I have to almost disregard what my eyes see and instead read the putts with my feet (feeling where the slopes are as you walk across the green), then I was able to start making putts with regularity. But it took many rounds.

[wsmorrison]

Long, gradual uphill approaches to greens, especially with little or no framing make it difficult to judge the slope and thus playing distance resulting in many short shots, especially aerial approaches, that hit into the slope with little to no roll.

[Bill_McBride]

(It won't fool the guys with the Bushnells but might fool the luddites   )

Are you really too lazy to find an irrigation head?  Your Bushnell comment is a sad one.  If you want yardage these days its available.  Irrigation heads, lasers, skycaddies or course yardage guides - its all the same information.  If you are fooled by a bunker that foreshadows a green on your home course then shame on you.

Andrew asked about "subtle features" that serve to deceive the golfer.  A favorite tactic of architects to achieve this is to place what appears to be a greenside bunker farther in front of the green that it appears.  My point about GPS and laser range finders is that they negate this tactic.  If the golfer can merely hold up a laser and pinpoint the distance with accuracy, this tactic loses its sting.  Even if you pace off the distance from a sprinkler head, or look at a yardage book, there is a degree of uncertainty in the golfer's mind because he doesn't know such data as distance off center of the pin.  With the mechanical measuring devices, he knows the distance with certainty.

This certainty about distance is my primary objection to mechanical distance finders.  It's just my humble opinion, I'm probably wrong, and I certainly don't want to stand in the way of progress.  

[Dan Boerger]

Wayne - Good call on the slight uphill. A terrific example of this is the 13th hole at St. Davids in Wayne, PA. The approach shot never looks as uphill as it really is. When you look back from the green, however, you really see it.

Also, I don't know if I would call this an architectural "feature" as it's being discussed here ... but the routing of any course is easy to overlook. The great courses I've played have great routing, IMO.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Bill

I still think that's bunk about yardages and uncertainty. Most courses these days also use colored flags to indicate position on the green and on your home course you should be able to tell where the flag is from experience.  That foreshadowing bunker should leave the same doubt to a players visual system regardless of how he got the yardage.  There is no excuse to be fooled by a bunker well short of the green.

As a practicing Luddite I hope you enjoyed your stagecoach ride from Florida to NY last year to play NGLA with your titanium driver   I love the selective love of technology.

[Lloyd_Cole]

There is a local muni near me with as short 4 that has a slightly crowned green. The approach is elevated and the crowned nature of the green is not evident  until you try to pitch to the rear half of the green and bound through.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

I still think that's bunk about yardages and uncertainty. Most courses these days also use colored flags to indicate position on the green and on your home course you should be able to tell where the flag is from experience.  That foreshadowing bunker should leave the same doubt to a players visual system regardless of how he got the yardage.  There is no excuse to be fooled by a bunker well short of the green.

Then why has this been one of the dominant architectural features of golf design since its inception?  Wasn't Donald Ross famous for this sort of deception.  I don't know why he would have bothered since it obviously doesn't work.

Andrew also didn't specify "your home course," and I was talking in generalities about "the golfer," not me personally.

Not sure why this range finder thing is jammed so tightly up your backside, but it sure seems to be!  I'll just keep my opinion and you keep yours!  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Bill

I still think that's bunk about yardages and uncertainty. Most courses these days also use colored flags to indicate position on the green and on your home course you should be able to tell where the flag is from experience.  That foreshadowing bunker should leave the same doubt to a players visual system regardless of how he got the yardage.  There is no excuse to be fooled by a bunker well short of the green.

Then why has this been one of the dominant architectural features of golf design since its inception?  Wasn't Donald Ross famous for this sort of deception.  I don't know why he would have bothered since it obviously doesn't work.

Andrew also didn't specify "your home course," and I was talking in generalities about "the golfer," not me personally.

Not sure why this range finder thing is jammed so tightly up your backside, but it sure seems to be!  I'll just keep my opinion and you keep yours!  

Why?  Because it give no advantage due to the fact that its common knowledge about a course if a player chooses to use it regardless of how he/she obtains the information- That's why.  You Luddite lovers are so selective in you love of technology.
Please answer the following
Do you use a new Titanium driver?
Do you ever take a golf cart?
Do you ever look at a scorecard for yardage?
Do you ever look at irrigation heads?
Do you use new technology golf balls (proV1, Callaway HX tour etc)?
Do you play blade irons?
Do you carry a hybrid?
Do you travel by airplane or stagecoach to play golf?

I could go on - the point is that you are a hypocrite on the issue of technology.

Foreshadowing bunkers play a role well beyond deception that is also useless in most of today's golf courses.  They were designed when there was no irrigation and conditions dictated that a ball just carry them to roll foward and stay on the green. If you carried the ball all the way to teh green in pre-irrigation times the ball would bounce through the green. They effectively played as if they were up against the greens surface.  Therefore your argument on this point is bunk as well.

[Bill_McBride]

Okay, you win, I am giving up my hypocritical ways and will buy a Sky Caddy tomorrow.  

Or do you recommend the Bushnell instead?

[Adam Clayman]

Slope deception is likely the hardest to figure out, and then, to trust.

But I like the question turned around.

What features that you don't know exist (because it's your virgin round, and it's blind) do you trust a great archie to have included?

My most memorable was on the aproach at the second at SFGC. Trusting Tillie to have blinded me to a route that was desirable.

Doak has done this also, and after one round at Apache Stronghold, I've guessed well thereafter.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Bill

You didn't answer the questions.  Why?

I assume that I know the answers already.  Lets take that titanium driver of yours.

I assume you find that it makes the game a bit easier and more enjoyable to stay within the rules of golf and still hit it a bit further then you used to with old technology.  Fine and dandy.  I also assume that since you don't like to lose that $15 wager you don't want to give your opponent (also playing within the rules) an advantage.  Again, fine and dandy.

Well the same is true for other technologies you don't seem to approve of and if in fact one of them just might speed up the game a bit (still debatable and for some it will and for some it will not) then that's all the better.

Live life as a Luddite for just one day and report back to us.  I just pray you don't pick that day to have a health crisis.

[Gary Slatter]

IMO most "golfers" do not notice ANY architectural features and just fire away towards the largest grassy area (and land just right of it).
However, if we align the tee blocks incorrectly we hear about it.

[Jerry Kluger]

Most golfers I play with do not care that much about architectural features other than what's in front of them, and then they don't appreciate what they're seeing.  The most unnoticed feature to me is what I refer to as the skyline green.  The green that's in a position where the pin stands alone and nothing needs to be added.  It can be uphill with the sky as a background(Sand Hills and Stone Eagle come to mind), it can be at the same level as the tee with the ocean as the background (Ocean Course at Kiawah)or it can be slightly downhill with a lake as a background(Stonewall in Virginia).  What most golfers miss is the beauty in its simplicity.  I recollect that this same feature is present at Plainfield where they took out the trees in order to bring it back to its natural simplicity.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Sean

Luddite is not an insult but I think if you are to take an anti-technology stance then do it with some consistency.

Anythng goes? - Where did you get that?  There are still teh USGA and R & A rules of golf to follow. If a competition deems rangefinders not legal then that's fine.  If they are deemed legal then what is your point about anything goes.  You can choose personally to play hickories and crap balls in a competition if that is your way of playing but others playing within the rules are not wrong either.

So you would do away with caddies as something beyond balls and clubs that provide a service and information?

Change the rules or lobby to do so if you wish just don't ride that high horse with an attitude about others that follow the rules.

[John_Cullum]

NOTE TO MIKE YOUNG-

Please have Longshadow updated into the SkyCaddy Database in time for Dixie Cup.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

You didn't answer the questions.  Why?

I assume that I know the answers already.  Lets take that titanium driver of yours.

I assume you find that it makes the game a bit easier and more enjoyable to stay within the rules of golf and still hit it a bit further then you used to with old technology.  Fine and dandy.  I also assume that since you don't like to lose that $15 wager you don't want to give your opponent (also playing within the rules) an advantage.  Again, fine and dandy.

Well the same is true for other technologies you don't seem to approve of and if in fact one of them just might speed up the game a bit (still debatable and for some it will and for some it will not) then that's all the better.

Live life as a Luddite for just one day and report back to us.  I just pray you don't pick that day to have a health crisis.

Geoff, I don't understand the level of personal animosity you have injected into a debate that started with my individual opinion that laser range finders etc should be banned.  Obviously that's not going to happen and I can live with that.  To my dismay, in fact, every electric cart at our newly rebuilt course has been equipped by our committee, presumably, with a laser range finder.  I prefer the old fashioned way, but that's just me.

In response to your other questions, I am only concerned about that issue.  Of course I use a titanium driver, who but Ran doesn't?  I'm about 20 yards shorter with it than I used to be with my persimmons, but I'm also about 20 years older!  I have no intention of living any kind of Luddite life, I just don't like the idea of lasers no matter who is using them!  

Get over it!  

[Geoffrey Childs]

There is no personal animosity at all Bill. Your position is fine with me but it is just illogical as well. The information you gather from the internet or reading the NY Times on line is the same as that when you read the newsprint. That is all.

Get over it yourself  

PS- Ran is currently into custom fitting with launch monitors and high tech personalized equipment. He's tired of being crushed every time he plays after begging for shots  

[Bill_McBride]

I'm over it!  

[peter_p]

Luddites would also be against computers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

I have said this before, but Donald Ross is overcredited for the visual deception thing.  That dissapearing ground in front of many greens was soley a result of his desire to find some fill close by, at least if you read the notes on his green plans.

Back on a good topic, I believe fw contours that affect your shot are usually unnoticed by golfers who figure it will hold their shot no matter what.  

Included in this would be domed fw, cross slopes steep enough to make you favor the high side or even rough, and hammerheads or other smaller ridges that might stop roll in one area or deflect shots to the wrong side of the fw.  But, there are others.

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