[Kyle Harris]

I've long held that in order to think outside of the box in regard to golf and golf architecture, one must first define golf in the simplest of terms and work from there.

Golf is a game where a golf ball is manuevered from point A to point B with a speficially designed implement or implements for the purpose of recording the number of instances of manuevering for the sake of comparison against another golfer or fixed figure.

By this definition, in order to play golf, one needs a point A (tee or starting point) a point B (the hole, a/k/a the only truly standard thing in golf), an implement (a conforming golf club) and a golf ball.

Everything else is ancillary and ultimately subjective in terms of qualitative measures of the game.

In this vein, and the recent discussion of computerized assistance for yardages, and even the old stand-by of yardage indicators on the course I have a rather interesting proposal.

Give me all the yardage information I can handle:
Sprinkler Heads
Pin Sheets
GPS
SkyCaddy
Yardage Books
and another other means.

Just do one thing:

Remove the flagstick.

Regardless of the quality of the other information, the presence of a flagstick on the green gives the golfer a focal and aiming point that is probably most useful in using all the other information available. Every piece of information in the golfers' mind is related to his ability to see or discern the flagstick on the green.

Yardages from the front or sides of a green are visualized FROM the flagstick to the edge of the green.

By removing the flagstick, we remove one of the points of information and suddenly, the golfer must process the information in relation to other features on the golf course, namely hazards and architectural features.

In his Androssan Farm tales, Tom Paul relates as to how he question Bill Coore as to why the golfer needed a focal point off the tee.

I'll extend this:

Why does he need one on the approach?

[Jeff Doerr]

Does someone have a history of when flags began to be used?

That being said - YOU HAVE GOT TO KNOW WHERE POINT B IS! Without an indicator it would truly would be blind luck as to your approach. Golf would not be a game of skill...

[Kyle Harris]

Does someone have a history of when flags began to be used?

That being said - YOU HAVE GOT TO KNOW WHERE POINT B IS! Without an indicator it would truly would be blind luck as to your approach. Golf would not be a game of skill...

Jeff,

With all the information given, you'd know EXACTLY where point B was - in relation to everything around it.

Is responding to unforseen circumstances not one of the skills tested by golf?

Does not the location of the green provide enough information as to the possible location of Point B?

Is discovery not a part of golf?

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle, The practical side of this will result in slowing the pace of golfers. Every player who thinks it's his god given right will walk all the way up to the green to see where the hole is. If you think i'm wrong, why do so many pga tour pros already do it, even with the flags.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, The practical side of this will result in slowing the pace of golfers. Every player who thinks it's his god given right will walk all the way up to the green to see where the hole is. If you think i'm wrong, why do so many pga tour pros already do it, even with the flags.

Because the PGA Tour pros do it for a living.

Pure speculation, do you mean to say that in this day of cartball and handmade service that a golfer is diligent enough to keep up that sort of meticulous behavior for 20 minutes, let alone 4 hours?

Furthermore, such efforts would still prove fruitless. We are testing the golfers ability to discern the target without a focus from back in the approach. He can have all the information he wants, but the visual picture taken from up by the green will have little to do with his ability to focus on the task at hand back in the fairway.

If anything, it would provide more clutter.

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle, Are you saying that being a pro precludes them from considering all those who follow?

Playing on a course without flags can be alot of fun, and, educational to the average player. Hopefully by doing so, illuminates how useless the flags can be, by shooting for the center of greens instead of one side or another. Resulting in lower scoring.

[Jeff Doerr]

Kyle,

I guess I'm trained by my upbringing. Being guided by a detailed pin sheet, detailed yardage guide, and markers all over the place (or GPS), seems artificial to the game.

I like a basic flag and maybe a 150 stake. I like a yardage book with distances from natural features and a basic pin sheet for the day. I even like the sheets with just round greens with depth and width numbers and the daily "6 from the right and 10 from the back".

Just my preferences...

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, Are you saying that being a pro precludes them from considering all those who follow?

Playing on a course without flags can be alot of fun, and, educational to the average player. Hopefully by doing so, illuminates how useless the flags can be, by shooting for the center of greens instead of one side or another. Resulting in lower scoring.

Adam,

In a way yes. Perception of this game changes the minute it's the medium by which one puts food on the table. Fairness takes on a whole new meaning in this regard and any PGA Tour pro not fighting anything that takes away any remote advantage they may have may be considered insane in regard to the original "Catch-22."

[RJ_Daley]

I can see the conceptual fun in your proposal, Kyle.  But, I must agree with Adam.  You might have fun playing with just a informational sheet to indicate where the hole is, but no flag or pin.  I agree it would be a great change of pace to rely more on the intuition and not have that focal point of a flagstick.  But, I don't think you, and I know I wouldn't want to play on a course where the rest of the golfers aren't into our style of fun.  They'd be walking up to look, and every other manner of slowing down play.  It would turn into a nightmare rather than our little experiment in intuition sort of round.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I guess I'm trained by my upbringing. Being guided by a detailed pin sheet, detailed yardage guide, and markers all over the place (or GPS), seems artificial to the game.

I like a basic flag and maybe a 150 stake. I like a yardage book with distances from natural features and a basic pin sheet for the day. I even like the sheets with just round greens with depth and width numbers and the daily "6 from the right and 10 from the back".

Just my preferences...

Jeff,

Exactly, you are trained by your upbringing. That's what I was getting at with the first part of my post. One must truly strip this game to its rudiments before ANY outside the box thinking occurs. Otherwise, we're just piling on subjective quality after subjective quality and using them to define something that should remain objective.

On a side note: Thank God Genesis stripped their sound after "Lamb" and "Duke" else the staying power of the music would have died. Listening to "Your Own Special Way" makes me thank the lord that Abacab was released within three albums of Wind and Wuthering.

[Joe Hancock]

I play better without pins. I just aim for the middle of the greens, and find myself with less short sided recoveries.

Joe

[wsmorrison]

I think playing a course on rare occasions would be fun but to do it systematically is ridiculous.  First of all, what mid to high handicappers really are aiming at a specific section of the green?  They aim for the green and hope their dispersion isn't beyond the green dimensions.  Maybe a small segment would play better without flags because they'd just go for the center of the green and not get in any trouble pin hunting.  The better players would be seriously compromised by a lack of a defined target and the qualities of good golf course architecture would be compromised as well since the pin position wouldn't influence shots from the tee onward.  What is the point of building falloffs and strategic greenside bunkers if they aren't going to influence approach shot dictatation?

Kyle, I can't think of too many dumber ideas if implemented on a regular basis.  Were you hanging out with Mike Malone this morning?

I just reread your proposition.  You want all the information available to you in other means, but you don't want a flagstick?  That is even dumber, though I didn't think it was possible.  Temptation is greater when there is a visual to help initiate the desire.  Take that away and temptation is greatly reduced, if not on the conscious then on the subconscious level.  Kyle, start wearing a hat.  Your noggin must be getting baked down there in the hot sun  

[Adam_F_Collins]

I've long held that in order to think outside of the box in regard to golf and golf architecture, one must first define golf in the simplest of terms and work from there.

Interesting idea, Kyle.

I've long held that in order to truly think outside the box, one must begin by never uttering the words, "think outside the box".

[Kyle Harris]

I can see the conceptual fun in your proposal, Kyle.  But, I must agree with Adam.  You might have fun playing with just a informational sheet to indicate where the hole is, but no flag or pin.  I agree it would be a great change of pace to rely more on the intuition and not have that focal point of a flagstick.  But, I don't think you, and I know I wouldn't want to play on a course where the rest of the golfers aren't into our style of fun.  They'd be walking up to look, and every other manner of slowing down play.  It would turn into a nightmare rather than our little experiment in intuition sort of round.

RJ,

People don't take on chess and change the rules to more resemble checkers to simplify the challenge. Where this ethic comes from in golf is beyond me (perhaps the inherent arrogance that golfers demonstrate in demanding perfect conditions and green, that we can control a complex system like nature - why not a complex system like our own ability to think?) but frankly, I don't think we should pander to it.

I'd argue that if they have as little pressure on their time where they could actually do such thing they probably wouldn't be playing at a crowded course anyway.

To me, this idea is just absurd enough to not effect change on anything other than how information is perceived.

Furthermore, how can architects design the golf course around this principle and would it be any differently?

[Kyle Harris]

I think playing a course on rare occasions would be fun but to do it systematically is ridiculous.  First of all, what mid to high handicappers really are aiming at a specific section of the green?  They aim for the green and hope their dispersion isn't beyond the green dimensions.  Maybe a small segment would play better without flags because they'd just go for the center of the green and not get in any trouble pin hunting.  The better players would be seriously compromised by a lack of a defined target and the qualities of good golf course architecture would be compromised as well since the pin position wouldn't influence shots from the tee onward.  What is the point of building falloffs and strategic greenside bunkers if they aren't going to influence approach shot dictatation?

Kyle, I can't think of too many dumber ideas if implemented on a regular basis.  Were you hanging out with Mike Malone this morning?

So Wayne, to the vast majority of golfers, the location of the flagstick doesn't matter?

And the better players would be challenged to redefine their thinking?

The downside again is....?

How does the location of the hole NOT use the architecture around it, with or without the flagstick?

I didn't realize bunkers moved when the flag was pulled.

Come on Wayne, I know you guys got a dusting of snow the other day, but that shouldn't have made you retreat to your study yet.

Surely your dog needed to make sometime.

[Jeff Doerr]

Anybody have the history on when flags began, or began to be widely used?

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

I reread your stupid idea and added to my above post.  You are so far out in Maloneville that I doubt this message will reach you.  If it does, no doubt the oxygen levels are so low that you won't understand it anyway  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I reread your stupid idea and added to my above post.  You are so far out in Maloneville that I doubt this message will reach you.  If it does, no doubt the oxygen levels are so low that you won't understand it anyway  

Prove it, then.  

I am going to head out and take a photo essay - let's see how some visualization truly works.

Perhaps when I come back to Philly, we could organize an outing and request the flagsticks be removed for us (Hell, I won't even play, just put the flagsticks back after our groups have been through and also go out and make pin sheets for you all).

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle, please come back to Philadelphia, we miss you

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, please come back to Philadelphia, we miss you

I may use that colloquial attitude about the "we" in regard to you being in Philadelphia the next time a Jersey/Philly war pops up.

I miss y'all (rather: youse, and certainly not yinz) too, General Arnold.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I read the first post thinking Kyle was making a case for the importance of the flagstick and the relative unimportance of all the other stuff (GPS, pin sheets, etc).

If you put a proposal like this in front of those who advocate the use of all those additional devices, and present it as a "flagstick vs extras" decision, I think most would choose the flag and leave everything else behind.

Maybe that's another way it could be approached to make the case for flagsticks only (and maybe 150 poles) - it in at least my mind signifies the relative importance of the flag and the relative uselessness of all the other stuff when it comes down to the basics.

[wsmorrison]

"Perhaps when I come back to Philly, we could organize an outing and request the flagsticks be removed for us (Hell, I won't even play, just put the flagsticks back after our groups have been through and also go out and make pin sheets for you all)."

And you think the results will be what?  

Seriously, Kyle.  Come down off of Bok Tower, you clearly have a bad case of High Anxiety!  We've got Nurse Diesel to take care of you  

[Kyle Harris]

I read the first post thinking Kyle was making a case for the importance of the flagstick and the relative unimportance of all the other stuff (GPS, pin sheets, etc).

If you put a proposal like this in front of those who advocate the use of all those additional devices, and present it as a "flagstick vs extras" decision, I think most would choose the flag and leave everything else behind.

Maybe that's another way it could be approached to make the case for flagsticks only (and maybe 150 poles) - it in at least my mind signifies the relative importance of the flag and the relative uselessness of all the other stuff when it comes down to the basics.

Brian,

I, too, thought of the "A or B" approach and somewhat like it. Wonder how much difference their really is.

As a somewhat accomplished player (and be honest here) how much of the information do you truly use? I am sure you got yourself out somewhere some Monday morning you had off and the flags were out for maintenance purposes, what'd you think?

[RJ_Daley]

I might have just such a photo essay, though I'm not going to go through all the work of putting up pictures to photobucket and then posting them here.

But, I went out to Sand Hills about late 90s, before the season started.  It was a great day and Corey let me go out and take as many pictures as I wanted.  So, I walked the whole course and took pics of tee, FW and green of almost every hole.  They hadn't put the flags in yet.  But the course was being totally well maintained at that point.  I wish I could have actually played it.

Let's face it... for hacks and handicaps over about 10s, the placement of the flag is almost too much info.  Hitting the green in reg is a delight!  If I could just focus on hitting the green, I'll take my chances of 2-3 putts everytime and beat my 13 handi by a mile.

[Kyle Harris]

"Perhaps when I come back to Philly, we could organize an outing and request the flagsticks be removed for us (Hell, I won't even play, just put the flagsticks back after our groups have been through and also go out and make pin sheets for you all)."

And you think the results will be what?  

Seriously, Kyle.  Come down off of Bok Tower, you clearly have a bad case of High Anxiety!  We've got Nurse Diesel to take care of you  

You're sitting higher than I would be on Bok Tower right now (assuming you're in Narberth).  

I have no idea what the result would be, if I did I'd probably give you six numbers to play in my name on the PA Lottery and give you some percentage for the trouble.

I'd like to find out though.

Better yet, let's do it at Lederach.

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