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Jay Flemma

John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« on: January 19, 2007, 07:23:29 PM »
John VanderBorght (I think I spelled that right) raises an interesting question in this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27593

I played Ghost Creek a loooooooooooooong time ago...1996.  That was long before I knew what to look for in great architecture, but I remember having fun and finding the scenery bucolic and the challenge tough but fair.  I think I remember some good opportunities for bump and run, but it also seemed alot of center line.

I know we tend to bash Bob Cupp here a bit, but three questions:

1.  What does everyone think of Ghost Creek architecturally and
2.  Where does it sit in a list of Cupp's designs?  Best?  Near best?
3.  What of Cupp's WOULD you recommend?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 07:24:38 PM by Jay Flemma »

Joe Bentham

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 07:39:11 PM »
Ghost Creek is a fun golf course on a nice (far from great) piece of property.  Intrestinly the greens are smaller at ghost then at Witch Hollow, the private side.  The other big difference is maintanece; gang mowing rules at ghost, while at witch they use a softer touch resulting in more variety not only in appearance but in shot options.  Neither course scores that high on the architectural side, but all in all a nice daily fee.  As far as other Cupp designs, I can only speak of the ones I've played, all of which are in Oregon.  Ghost is much better then its in town rival the Reserve, but isn't nearly as good as Crosswater.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 07:43:46 PM »
It can't possibly be any good because it:

a)  Is in the Northwest, but not situated on a large body of water

b)  designed by one of the GCA faves--NOT

c)  Rains too much

d)  Is too wet for preferred playing conditions always

e)  Has containment mounding that you would think were the size of small buildings from hearing some of the folks here talk

f)  Is an overpriced public, non-resort course not worthy of additional attention

g)  Has a membership delusional about the quality of their courses

I have heard all the above criticisms at one time or another on here...

I wish someone who is/was a member there could tell us more about it! ;) ;) ;) :) :)

Jeff Doerr

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 11:59:27 PM »
IMHO, in the PNW the Pumpkin Ridge complex rightly stands out.

Family time now, but I can say a lot more later.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Scott Szabo

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2007, 02:10:03 AM »
It can't possibly be any good because it:

a)  Is in the Northwest, but not situated on a large body of water

b)  designed by one of the GCA faves--NOT

c)  Rains too much

d)  Is too wet for preferred playing conditions always

e)  Has containment mounding that you would think were the size of small buildings from hearing some of the folks here talk

f)  Is an overpriced public, non-resort course not worthy of additional attention

g)  Has a membership delusional about the quality of their courses

I have heard all the above criticisms at one time or another on here...

I wish someone who is/was a member there could tell us more about it! ;) ;) ;) :) :)

If I'm not mistaken, John Kirk is a member at Pumpkin Ridge.  Maybe he could shed some light on this dicussion....

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Gary Slatter

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2007, 08:29:20 AM »
John VanderBorght (I think I spelled that right) raises an interesting question in this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27593

I played Ghost Creek a loooooooooooooong time ago...1996.  That was long before I knew what to look for in great architecture, but I remember having fun and finding the scenery bucolic and the challenge tough but fair.  I think I remember some good opportunities for bump and run, but it also seemed alot of center line.

I know we tend to bash Bob Cupp here a bit, but three questions:

1.  What does everyone think of Ghost Creek architecturally and
2.  Where does it sit in a list of Cupp's designs?  Best?  Near best?
3.  What of Cupp's WOULD you recommend?
[/Cupps best may be Muirfield Village, followed by Mad River, Pumpkin Ridge, Deerhurst Highland (with McBroom) and Beacon Hall.   I have not played others, but I do think his Feature Interview was ahead of his time and excellent.]
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jeff Doerr

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 10:40:03 AM »
Jay,

I know PR fairly well.

I do think it ranks right up there with the best Cupp (& Fought) have done. I've not played Muirfield, but my TV impression is that the course share many features. I've played a few other designs of both architects and think this is close to their best work. Reasons for me are as follows:

1) Course concept. From the beginning this was seen as a USGA hosting site. It is in a region that did not have a big draw PGA event. In the summer this area has some of the best weather on the planet. They wanted something that could host every USGA event. For the most part they have succeeded in attaining most of that dream. Tiger's historic 3rd US Amateur, Women's Open events, and a number of others. The courses really are up to that standard, and as I understand it, it is why they were built. The men's Open may not ever happen at PR, but it surely could. The course seems to be paying their dues in an attempt to finally bring the big one to the PNW.
1b) Site and Features. From the day it opened the course felt old. Many of the great trees and natural areas were preserved. And yet, the courses feels very open while playing. There is tremendous variety to the fairways and green complexes. Wide fairways and narrow, big greens and small, and a great sense of pace. These are perfect walking courses. The course is set in an area of gentle hills that feed down to the rich farmland of the Tualatin Plain. The bent fairways can be a little soggy in the winter, but when the summmer (really about June thru October) comes they are awesome. They also make for seamless aprons and fringe areas around the greens. Some of the mounding and water features may seem a little out of place. But again, the land would naturally have a number of creek beds and maybe a few ponds from the pasture land that it used to be. From the first day I played at PR, and even today, it feels like a classic old course that will prove itself with time.
2. I like both Ghost and Witch better than Crosswater or anything I've played by Cupp or Fought. I've not played Mad River.
3. I'd recommend these two to anyone. Witch is a must play if you followed Tiger and the '96 Am at all, and Ghost may be even more fun. If I were Bob Cupp, I would continue to tinker with the 36 at PR for the rest of my days. I think they are two that will speak well of him into far off years.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

John Kirk

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 10:52:13 AM »
For whatever reason, I don't feel like discussing Ghost Creek this morning, but here's some information.

First of all, Michael Dugger has provided a detailed summary of Ghost Creek for GolfClubAtlas in the "My Home Course" section:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcdugger.html

Unlike the majority of Pumpkin Ridge members,  I like the public Ghost Creek about equal or slightly better than its private counterpart, Witch Hollow.  Ghost Creek was originally intended to be the "Tournament Course", and the Nike Tour (now Nationwide Tour) championship was held there twice, with David Duval winning in 1993.  Compared to Witch Hollow, Ghost Creek has a greater variety of hole lengths, and in my opinion, presents a greater variety of shots to be executed.

As peviously mentioned, Ghost has many small greens, but also a couple large ones in excess of 10,000 square feet.  Green size correlates very closely with the length of expected approach, so the short holes (3s, 4s, and 5s) have really tiny greens.  The greens at Ghost Creek have a medium amount of contour, but less than most of the eastern championship courses.  A few greens (3, 4, 11, 12, 15, and 17) have variations of two tiers, in contrast to Witch Hollow, which has  no two tier greens, but three greens with three distinct greens within a green (4, 8, and 16).  Three of Ghost Creek's greens are quite tricky, and even longtime members have trouble reading the break on holes 6, 7 and 18.  In general, most GCA members would wish for more contour within the greens.

The course is situated on the south facing slope of Pumpkin Ridge, and Ghost Creek occupies the hillier part of the property.  The name Ghost Creek alludes to a system of manufactured streams which mysteriously appear, and come into play on eight holes (3, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 17, and 18).  In addition, there are two large holding ponds  guarding the greens on 9 and 18, both long, difficult par 4s.  I wish more difficulty had been created by adding undulation to the fairways and greens, negating the need for so much artificial hazarding.

Both Pumpkin Ridge courses are very "fair".  Good shots are highly correlated with good results.  The fairways are very flat, and a straight drive is almost always rewarded with a level stance.  Rarely does not experience a "bad break", or an unexpected bounce.  Fairway bunkers tend to guard the best angle of approach, so the best drive is usually in the fairway next to the bunker.

The front nine goes out and back, with the back nine inside the front nine.  The back nine is much shorter (3200 vs. 3600), and is generally thought of as the weakest nine at the Club.  Although the back nine is the weakest visually, and by far the easiest nine at the Club, it provides a very compelling finish, far more interesting than the private course.  15 is an easy par 5, reacahble for the power hitter.  16 is a par 2.5, modeled after number 7 at Pebble Beach.  17 is a 300 yard par 4, with a tiny green and trouble everywhere.  18 is the 450 yard finisher with an odd green that slopes away from the lake on the right.  In 1994, the eventual winner of the Nike Tour Championship, double bogeyed 17 by taking four shots from about 25 feet, just off the green, then birdied 18 with a spectacular approach to an extremely difficult back right pin over the water.

Now I know why I didn't want to write about it.  I knew it would take a while.  Peter and JVB will probably step up and add a few comments.  Tom Doak wrote about Pumpkin Ridge in the Confidential Guide briefly, and gave Witch a 6 and Ghost a 5.  I feel that Ghost probably deserves a 6, based on slightly better terrain, a better variety of shotmaking, and a really fun finish.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 11:22:15 AM »

Scott,

        Peter is a member of Pumpkin Ridge also, he's being silly.

Glenn Spencer

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 12:21:45 PM »
I have only seen it on TV, but if a golf course continues to turn out the kind of tournaments that PR does, I couldn't care less about the architecture. It will always be a great golf course to me. I also happen to like what I have seen on TV. I don't like the back bunker on the short water par 3 though. I think it is 12.

Scott Szabo

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2007, 12:41:12 PM »

Scott,

        Peter is a member of Pumpkin Ridge also, he's being silly.


Sorry for my apparent lack of knowledge :)
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

JohnV

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2007, 01:50:03 PM »
As an ex-member of Pumpkin Ridge, I'll toss in a couple of comments.

I agree with John on most of his comments, although I've always preferred Witch by a little over Ghost.  I think the front 9 at Ghost is the best 9 holes on the property, but the first 5 holes on the back at Ghost are a little too bland or manufactured for me.

Since it was intended to be the tournament course, some of the back 9 at Ghost has a stadium course feel, especially 12 and 18 with big manufactured berms all round the greens.

When the Nike Tour Championship was played here in 1993 and 1994, the 9th hole was the toughest hole on tour both years and 18 was the second toughest.  #1 also made the top 20 one year as I recall.  That is pretty good since only the top 50 guys were playing.  All are long, difficult par 4s.

The greens at Ghost are much more subtle than Witch and a lot of putts look straight but aren't, especially when the speed gets up.

In general, having the two courses at Pumpkin Ridge available for the members to play, while still having the revenue from the public one works pretty well.  I never got bored playing around there.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2007, 11:54:39 AM »
The Pumpkin Ridge courses also filled a big void in Western Portland golf.

Till they were built, most all the good courses were over on the other side of the Willamette.  There was Portland GC, but you couldn't get in there.  Oswego Lake was also fine, but pretty expensive.

I still remember the construction of the Pumpkin Ridge courses and lamenting the fact that I was a member of a club way over east by the airport, while here were two wonderful courses just a few exits down US26 from work.

I really liked Ghost Creek but found it to be a little predictible.  I don't think they let you walk it back at the start, but they wouldn't let carts off the paths, which really hurt the experience.  

However, to me, the most maddening thing about Ghost Creek WAS Ghost Creek.  You never knew when that dang thing was going to come into play.  Personally, I like knowing where a hazard will be before I play a hole.

Bill_McBride

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2007, 02:32:03 PM »
I thoroughly enjoyed a round at Pumpkin Ridge / Witch Hollow, with Mike Erdmann and my brother.  It is very sporty, a lot of variety in the holes, although I don't remember a short par 4.  (These days they are all long for me!   :P )

The only hole that really felt out of character was the 18th with its two forced carries across wetlands.  I don't recall another forced carry on the golf course, so this came out of nowhere.  It's almost like Bob Cupp looked at the routing, liked it but said, "We gotta get back to the clubhouse and have to accommodate those wetlands, so this is as good as we are going to get."

Other than that, a really good course and I'm sure a lot of fun to play on a regular basis, particulalry with the public course to mix it up a bit.

Jay Flemma

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2007, 08:55:51 PM »
I thoroghly enjoyed my rounds, but also the price was a bit high for pub daily fee...what does everyone think of the witch?

Matt_Ward

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 11:09:20 AM »
I have had the pleasure in playing both courses twice over a period of roughly 10 years and frankly while both are solid additions to the Oregon golf scene -- the overall standing of the courses is a bit below that of national fanfare IMHO.

Pumpkin Ridge has a number of noteworthy qualities but and clearly has played a role in raising the golf bar in Oregon -- however, being worthy of national acclaim at the very elite levels is a bit beyond what you see there given the range of courses I have played.

Jeff Doerr

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2007, 11:15:30 AM »
Question for all:

What would need to change out at Pumpkin Ridge to get it to an 8 or 9 on the Doak Scale?

2nd question:

What would need to change to get a men's Open at one of the courses?
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

tlavin

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2007, 11:55:41 AM »
Question for all:

What would need to change out at Pumpkin Ridge to get it to an 8 or 9 on the Doak Scale?

2nd question:

What would need to change to get a men's Open at one of the courses?

Answer to both questions:  A bunch of excavating equipment, a great construction crew and a different architect.  Pumpkin Ridge has two nice courses and there's no doubt that it's an improvement in the Portland area, but it was built to early to catch the minimalism movement and it has a very vanilla, manufactured look and feel in comparison to the newer work that gets so many kudos here and elsewhere.

Matt_Ward

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2007, 02:23:45 PM »
Jeff D:

Regarding the US Open -- it's highly doubtful unless the existing course(s) were completely morphed into something entirely different.

I have a lot of respect for what both courses have done for the immediate area / region but once again this is situation where the bar for national consideration is much higher than many might think -- particularly for those who have only been exposed to such layouts in the Northwest.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2007, 03:03:51 PM »
I will chime in with a few non-satirical remarks, although admittedly I am not unbiased about either course at Pumpkin Ridge...

Jeff, what do you think the benefit of obtaining an arbitrary Doak score would be for either course?  Would it have a direct marketing benefit for the (potential) dues paying members or paying public?  It might be that you were asking what could have been done differently at the beginning during the design process that would have yielded higher Doak scores...If that is so, Tom himself would need to chime in, but I suspect that his answer might be "nothing".  I think it could reasonably be argued that neither the land itself nor the design team could likely have crafted what Tom himself considers an "8" or "9" in that location in 1991/1992.  

Remember the time frames:  Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Bandon, Friar's Head, Kingsley, etc, (courses which the GCA-group generally tend to love) didn't exist yet.  Look down the list of Golfweek Modern Top 100 and ask yourself what courses/clubs came to be in that 1988-1992 time period...

Takes a while, doesn't it!  Remember, this was decidedly post-Dye, mid-Nicklaus and pre-GCA fave time...

For what was intended, where it was created and what was high-profile golf course architecture in 1991, Pumpkin Ridge has held up pretty well in 15 years.  It has even created a legacy of tournament golf that is pretty admirable for 15 years.  It is a different way of creating history--not in the Sebonack, Ballyneal, Colorado Golf Club or Sand Hills breath-taking architectural and timeless appeal way--but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid and vibrant "player" in terms of tournament golf in the Pacific Northwest.

It isn't and will never be a Winged Foot, or even a Baltusrol or perhaps even a Sleepy Hollow or Deepdale or Huntingdon Valley, but it's an apples and oranges comparison anyway...

That the Bandon courses, Pronghorn, Chambers Bay, etc have or may surpass it in terms of perceived quality in the Northwest is neither an indictment nor a death-sentence for Pumpkin Ridge...

In terms of hosting major chapionship men's golf in the future, Pumpkin Ridge has what is proving to be one of the trickiest areas covered--the infrastructure demands (technology connections, cabling, housing/hotels in proximity, parking, tent areas, etc).  However, as John VB and John K and I have noted here before, there are maintenance related issues with narrowing fairways, crowd-movement concerns and course length issues now with both Ghost Creek and Witch Hollow.  There is precious, if any, room for lengthening at Witch Hollow and major renovations at Ghost Creek would severely impact the revenue stream there...Firm and fast conditions are definitely obtainable in July and August and early September, which would seem to suggest that the US Am and the PGA would be the best considerations, but neither course would seem realistically able to properly challenge the longest hitting male amateurs or pros at present...

Again, I will not concede that hosting the men's Open is a necessity to establish the history of the club, although many of the membership felt that way (or still do).  Pumpkin Ridge has gone to the altar many times with the USGA, and if the Far Hills boys were ever serious about hosting a men's Open in Portland the time would have come earlier this decade.

A current tournament would have be some amalgamation/composite of the two courses, and we know how much we all love that idea!

All that having been said, it's not as if the club has been around for 50-75 years or anything...If the USGA and or the PGA really wanted to get serious about using Pumpkin Ridge for a major men's tournament, and committed to it contractually, and the corporate ownership made the commitment to renovate/redesign one or the other of the two courses to accomodate that wish, then perhaps better here than at Baltusrol or Scioto or Oakland Hills or whatever, where there would be more legitimate concerns about altering irretrievably a masterpiece of GCA....

Peter
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 03:05:22 PM by Peter_Herreid »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2007, 03:46:56 PM »
...and course length issues now with both Ghost Creek and Witch Hollow.  There is precious, if any, room for lengthening at Witch Hollow and major renovations at Ghost Creek would severely impact the revenue stream there...

As I recall, part of the goal of the Pumpkin Ridge project was to bring the US Open to the Pacific Northwest. They seemed to be on a path to accomplishing it with all the aforementioned tournaments being held there and the Senior Open being scheduled to be there. Then the Senior Open got pulled, and the future doesn't look bright.

I find it amazing that courses built when these were are no longer long enough to hold the very tournament they were constructed with the hopes of hosting. Bad timing with respect to the failure of the USGA to control the ball and other equipment adequately.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Herrmann

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2007, 05:09:01 PM »
By the way, IIRC, Earl Anthony, Hall of Fame bowler, was an early member and may have even won the club championship.

John Kirk

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2007, 05:21:37 PM »
Earl Anthony did not win the club championship, but he was a helluva player and an even better guy.

Garland,
Your remarks about the unfortunate timing and Pumpkin Ridge's failure to anticipate great changes in the equipment is on the mark.  I wonder if the owners would have opted for one large championship course had they known it would have to be 7500 yards long to host the U.S. Open.  Then again, we wouldn't have held the U.S. Amateur.

In general, Pumpkin Ridge is not difficult enough.  In order to upgrade the course for a U.S. Open, you would either a) use a composite course from the two courses.  A fairly coherent routing yields a pretty stout challenge.  Or b) You would spend a couple million dollars and toughen up Ghost Creek a lot, making it a 7150 yard par 70.  You would have to make some of the green complexes much more severe, in order to offer the test that courses like Pinehurst and Winged Foot offer.  I wish they'd do that anyway.  For instance, Peter, why isn't Witch Hollow #2 a real Redan, with a big back left slope?  #10 Ghost Creek green could be toughened up a lot, too.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2007, 05:41:50 PM »
Hi John!

It's always fun to play the "what would I tweak" game, but one thing I would do if find a way to make greens #4,#8 and #16 at Witch a bit more different from one another--while I'm not saying they don't each "work" within the context of the individual hole, I think that taken collectively the "3 shelf, high-center, two-lower left and right tiers with the low left tier disproportionally easier" idea 3 times on one course is a bit much...

#2 WH is preciously close to a Redan in some ways already, I agree, why not finish the deal?  If the back half of that sloping away green was another 5-10 yds further down that slope, it would take a lot of guts to throw one back there with the risk of the wetlands behind--I have sculled more than my share back there not trying!

One thing I have always found interesting at Ghost is how few players I have been with that have hit #10 in two shots, and I have played it with quite a few low HCP'ers over the years.  On the one hand, the green is tiny-yes- but there is really not that much horrible danger right next to the green; the creek is further back.  On the other hand, the green is so flat that every putt is makeable on that surface...

I know John VB is not so fond of the start of the back 9 on Ghost, but one could do whatever you wanted with #10 in terms of length/par, and I love, love, love #11.  I think #12 fairway, although wide, is deceptively tough to hit reliably without a fade ball, and I think #13 is highly underrated.  I have probably seen more misjudged distances/directions on the approaches to that green than any other on the back nine, and I really like the vertical spine on that green...

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 05:43:00 PM by Peter_Herreid »

Jay Flemma

Re:John VB asks a good Q: what about Pumpkin Ridge?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2007, 08:19:14 PM »
In response to what might make us rate it higher:  more centerline bunkers and slightly wider fwys??

I thought the greens were kinda interesting, but not as intricate as PD. What does everyone else think of the greens?  Any favorite greens or favorite strategic holes?  ON GC I mean...

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