[Mike_Sweeney]

Well the University of Alabama boosters could not save their golf club (it is now independent www.capstoneclub.com), yet they found $35 million for hiring Nick Saban as their new football coach. Maybe Nick should buy The Capstone Club for his boosters. From Fox Sports:
__________________
While giving all due credit to Mal Moore and others at Alabama who brokered this bold and big-league deal with Mr. Saban, one can't ignore the social and ethical stains associated with this development. On a social level, this deal serves to rapidly escalate and accelerate the dollars involved in college football's nuclear arms race for on-field success. A few days after the University of Minnesota — which is currently throwing huge money into a new stadium and other football upgrades — caved in to fan (read: luxury suite buyer) pressure and sacked Glen Mason, Alabama has shown that money is no object when it comes to winning football games. A reported minimum of $35 million, combined with incentives that could make the deal more lucrative, represents a lavish and extravagant package to a coach who succeeded at LSU, but didn't sustain that success only because he was unwilling to stay in Baton Rouge for an extended period of time. This will have considerable consequences on other coaching salaries across the country, and in most cases, the dollars will spill out of university coffers with even greater frequency.
_______________

As a graduate of Boston College, I can certainly be accused of having a chip on my/our shoulder, as I have no idea how BC with its 44,000 seat stadium in a pro sports town can possible compete with these monster contracts at monster public universities. The absolutely greatest professor I ever had at BC and Cornell left after my freshman year to take a job with a Super Bowl related company.

As a golfer who is not afraid to pull out his wallet to play a nice golf course, at some point I will get tired of paying Jack Nicklaus his $2.0 million design fee, when I can play a great course on land purchased in 1920 that cost considerably less to play.

Almost forgot Tiger's fee of $20 million. Are these markets (high end golf and high end football) doomed to crash similar to the Internet and Biotech bubbles?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I guess football is more important than golf at U of Alabama and at most universities. My alma mater has successfully fought off Freedom of Information lawsuits that were filed attempting to discover Joe Paterno's salary. Penn State is a "state related" university together with Pitt and Temple, and, as such, according to the courts, is not a "state institution" and therefore not subject to disclose.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Steve,

Maybe JoePa can save these courses:

A portfolio of four local golf courses has hit the market with developer Jack Loew deciding to unload the properties and get out of the golf business.

The four courses are the Downingtown Golf Club in Downingtown, French Creek Golf Club in Elverson, Bucks County Golf Club in Jamison and Ingleside Golf Club in Thorndale.

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2007/01/01/story2.html?b=1167627600%5E1395751

[PThomas]

Mike:  ESPN says it was $32 mill, so I guess Nick will have to cut back a bit

what a phony he is...said he wasn't going to leave , wasn't going to leave.......


$32 MILLION to coach COLLEGE football...something is wrong with our world

[Kyle Harris]

Penn State is actually putting money into the White Course.  

[Phil McDade]

I guess football is more important than golf at U of Alabama and at most universities. My alma mater has successfully fought off Freedom of Information lawsuits that were filed attempting to discover Joe Paterno's salary. Penn State is a "state related" university together with Pitt and Temple, and, as such, according to the courts, is not a "state institution" and therefore not subject to disclose.

Steve:

Honest-to-God true story: I actually covered Penn State for the local daily newspaper (not the Collegian, the State College paper) for a while back in the 1980s, including 86-87, when the Nits won the national championship. I used to fight the university big-wigs day and night over records and information, and usually got stonewalled with the "state-related excuse," Salaries, budgets, you name it -- they wouldn't give in.

So one day I tried a different tack. I was doing a fundraising fly-around the state covering the then-president, Bryce Jordan (they named the new arena after him). Jordan was a good ole Texan boy, a great guy, gracious and charming but with a tough streak, and we'd had a couple of run-ins over some of my stories. So I asked him: What kind of contract does Paterno have? And he just grinned at me and said: "Let's just say Joe and I have an understanding."

Even I had to laugh at that line!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Paterno has given a substantial sum to PSU  and was very involved in raising money for the library, now the Paterno Library.

Saban is the Larry Brown of football coaches.

[JohnV]

On one of the ESPN shows today they said that Alabama is the only SEC school whose athletic department is entirely self-funded.  I guess the golf course didn't make the cut line for that.

Sorry to hear the French Creek is for sale.  I hope whoever buys it keeps it as good as it is.

[Mike_Young]

I really think many of these so called University courses have nothing to do with the university.  the one in our town just uses the name and supposedly pays the university Alumni assoc to do so.  Have seen the same at other places......

College athletics and coaches salaries will change when we evolve to the point where college athletes are actually athletes that should be in college.  All it is now is a farm system for professional sports just like Minor league baseball.....JMO

[John_Conley]

Saban is getting this money to coach Alabama.  Many people in that state have an odd ordering of their priorities, often putting 'bama football above health, church, and family.

I agree with the comment about BC... schools like that (or my alma mater Minnesota presently without both a BB and FB coach) can make horrible decisions in an attempt to keep up.  For us in the Big Ten it is Michigan and Ohio State football.  The school has not done better than 5-3 since 1973, and even that mark is something we've only achieved 4 or 5 times, yet we fired a coach that's done as well as any of his predecessors - a group that includes coaching icon Lou Holtz.

Lest anyone say these guys don't deserve it, I expect you to then say you don't watch college athletics.  Nobody pays to see chemistry lab.  As mentioned, the money is there for the coaches because it is easily there for the program.

Turns out it was Alabama that broke the bank.  It could easily have been Florida two years ago as they had a ton of money lined up for a run at Bob Stoops - all committed by donors on the condition it be to get Stoops to replace the Zooker.

[Phil McDade]

"Lest anyone say these guys don't deserve it, I expect you to then say you don't watch college athletics.  Nobody pays to see chemistry lab."

John:

Actually, lots of people pay to see the chemistry lab, as well as the biology, medical and engineering labs. They're the NIH, the National Science Foundation and numerous other public and private research funding agencies. At most large research universities, professors more than pay for their own salaries through research grants, money that almost always pays for the salaries of a host of other university employees, modern lab equipment, and even new buildings (UW-Madison's fairly new biochemistry building was built almost entirely with proceeds from patents of university researchers) -- to say nothing of the research advances.

Aside from one college football program -- Penn State -- I know of no situation in which fans pay to see coaches coach. They pay to watch players perform. Granted, those players may perform better under Nick Saban than Mike Shula, but on a related note, don't the players deserve a small portion of Saban's $32 million if they lead 'Bama back to the promised land?

[John_Conley]

Phil, you're blurring the issue a little bit for me.  I'll do my best to respond.

1)  If you are charged with something important your pay is usually pretty high.  Tons of money flows through a grocery store; yes, the manager makes a good living.  Same with a full-service hotel.  Same with an oil rig.

There is a ton of money that will flow into the Alabama coffers for football if the team wins.  Saban makes a lot of money for the same reason Julia Roberts got $20,000,000 for a film - you can bank on them.  (Or at least that's the belief.)

2)  No, it is hard to say the kids definitely deserve money.  I'd argue that they could get some, but there's an easy case that they shouldn't.  What they do receive is known beforehand.  They cannot claim oppression.  If you don't want what the opportunity affords - a paid-for education and the exposure in front of professional scouts - they are free not to enter into the agreement.

When you put pen to paper and try to figure out how to even pay athletes a stipend it gets pretty murky in a hurry.  Does a female diver at Cal St. - Fullerton get money?  What about a wrestler at Lock Haven?  The concept of 'revenue sports' is even a challenge.  Hockey at Minnesota isn't a money-loser and I suspect lacrosse may work the same at some schools.

[Phil McDade]

John:

I'll grant you the slope is a pretty slippery and murky one. Here at Wisconsin, we have three revenue-generating sports (football, hoops and hockey), which is three more than most other Div. 1 schools. Still, university researchers at the UW bring in at least 5-10 times as much money as the athletic department in any given year. The chancellor makes far, far less than at least two of Wisconsin's head coaches.

As far as paying students, I'm of two minds on it. Yes, they get access to a free education (which they have to earn through good grades), training table meals and access to tutoring that most students don't. Still, the big-time athletes -- through their efforts on the field of play -- generate millions of dollars annually for ADept. coffers, and they don't see any of it.

Div. 1 athletic departments -- at least the ones generating money -- are one of the great socialistic enterprises still left in America. The rich -- football, basketball mainly -- subsidize the poor -- swimming, cross country and the like. Still, there are finite dollars out there, and money spent on Nick Saban's salary is not available for financing full rides for deserving athletes. Wisconsin offers 85 full rides in football and less than 10 in cross country; can't the football program get by with one less third-string tackle in return for giving a scholarship to one of the best cross country programs in the country?

I worry that Saban's contract just further inflates the arms race for coaching salaries at big-time Div. 1 schools.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am the first person who should be bitter or angry over Saban's move. The Tiger world sure is. In those famous words from Animal House, "Saban   Dead Man!!!". I see it as a major career breaker for him. The pros are now out.  He is at a college program with more meddling and poor leadership than your average place which he hates. He is never satisfied and will spend 100 million of so more on facility improvements or until Bama says uncle. I always felt when a coach is responsible to the economic balance of a 20 to 30 million dollar budget, then 10% is fair compensation. Our revenues go down 1 to 3 million a year when the team is 7 and 4 or worse. However in a move of Texas A&M like proportions Bama is breaking the mold on all that. He could damage them beyond the obvious. I am not concerned with smaller schools for they either get the allums to support the program or accept not being as good. The NCAA lacks leadership in so many areas and has for so long, I doubt they will step up here anymore than they have anywhere else. Nick will do a great job for them and put them back where they think they think they still are. Oh Pat Mucci, nice effort by your Irish last night. To the victors go the spoils and well the Tigers beat your south bend boys within an inch of their lives. They have great players and a very good offense but omg the D coordinator would not last a season around here.

[Jesse Jones]

No coach will be able to recruit against Alabama and say, "I heard Saban is going to the NFL".

It's a sad..sad day for football..
The problem is, I've been saying this around the same time  for the past 5 years.

[Mike_Young]

Saban is getting this money to coach Alabama.  Many people in that state have an odd ordering of their priorities, often putting 'bama football above health, church, and family.

I agree with the comment about BC... schools like that (or my alma mater Minnesota presently without both a BB and FB coach) can make horrible decisions in an attempt to keep up.  For us in the Big Ten it is Michigan and Ohio State football.  The school has not done better than 5-3 since 1973, and even that mark is something we've only achieved 4 or 5 times, yet we fired a coach that's done as well as any of his predecessors - a group that includes coaching icon Lou Holtz.

Lest anyone say these guys don't deserve it, I expect you to then say you don't watch college athletics.  Nobody pays to see chemistry lab.  As mentioned, the money is there for the coaches because it is easily there for the program.

Turns out it was Alabama that broke the bank.  It could easily have been Florida two years ago as they had a ton of money lined up for a run at Bob Stoops - all committed by donors on the condition it be to get Stoops to replace the Zooker.

John,
Never think these kids don't get what they need..whether it be automobiles, cash or clothing.....The NCAA knows it and all of the really coaches understand the game and remain at arms length but you do not get the big boys without the cash......and it will continue so it might as well be in the rules....
Mike

[John_Conley]

Still, there are finite dollars out there, and money spent on Nick Saban's salary is not available for financing full rides for deserving athletes.

Phil, are you aware that the university (actually the athletic department) doesn't get the money from the boosters if they don't have Saban?  I'm sure you are, especially when it is mentioned in a prior post.  Nobody is going without books in this instance.

Contrast that with UCF where student fees are far higher than they are at UF, mainly to 'upgrade the football program' - a euphemism for covering O'Leary's salary and those of his assistants.

You should be more worked up over UCF than you should Alabama.

Also, your last comment is telling.  Anyone can describe how it is.  You're talking about what you wish it was and that's a different thing altogether.

Mike:  It is almost impossible to regulate.  Answer this question... does a female high jumper at Utah State get this money in your scenario?  If not, why not?  Does the money stay at the school or does it go to the NCAA to pay scholarship athletes?  Does it apply to sports that aren't bringing in the money?  Is it an equal amount at each school?

I don't need to tell you about college athletes, boosters, and kids that get what they want.  It affected your program.  What I usually hear is the philosophical "they should get paid because they bring in so much money" comment and I don't ever hear a plan that makes sense to get it in their hands.

Mitch Albom felt duped by Chris Webber.  His book about the Fab Five included his comment about how kids were buying his #4 jersey and he never saw a cent.  A decade later it came to light that Ed Martin paid him handsomely.

Does Greg Oden, who may be the best player in college basketball, make the same money as Jeremy Hunt?  Is Hunt penalized because he's been arrested?  Does the coach have the ability to discipline players by withholding their money?  Seriously, I need someone to tell me how this is all going to work.

[Mike_Young]

Mike:  It is almost impossible to regulate.  Answer this question... does a female high jumper at Utah State get this money in your scenario?  If not, why not?  Does the money stay at the school or does it go to the NCAA to pay scholarship athletes?  Does it apply to sports that aren't bringing in the money?  Is it an equal amount at each school?

I don't need to tell you about college athletes, boosters, and kids that get what they want.  It affected your program.  What I usually hear is the philosophical "they should get paid because they bring in so much money" comment and I don't ever hear a plan that makes sense to get it in their hands.

Mitch Albom felt duped by Chris Webber.  His book about the Fab Five included his comment about how kids were buying his #4 jersey and he never saw a cent.  A decade later it came to light that Ed Martin paid him handsomely.

Does Greg Oden, who may be the best player in college basketball, make the same money as Jeremy Hunt?  Is Hunt penalized because he's been arrested?  Does the coach have the ability to discipline players by withholding their money?  Seriously, I need someone to tell me how this is all going to work.

John,
 I am basically talking about the free enterprise system.  The revenue sports are the ones where the guys get paid.  And coaches understand the system and have ways of staying at arms length.   Let me give you a hypothetical situation that happens across the country and the NCAA will not touch it.....Little Johnny from small town Georgia becomes a star basketball player....all the big boys start recruiting....asst coach A as well as Coach B and coach C find that Little johnny's mother goes to Rev Bob's church...All these coaches converge on the church...The rev is nice to all coaches...he says e can help them with Little johnny.....well coach comes back and tells booster a that he should make a donation to Rev bob's church and Rev bob knows to send 90% to the family of little johnny.....NCAA ain't touching that.....(of course in the case of KB, as we know, the preacher got run out of town).....
And even worse is fraternity bookies at major schools.  For $500 bucks you can have a point guard win by 10 instead of 20......and Vegas has no control of that....scares the hell out of them.
It is out of control and getting worse........there will always be ways to get the money to the stars.....all the big schools do it...

[Phil McDade]

"Phil, are you aware that the university (actually the athletic department) doesn't get the money from the boosters if they don't have Saban?  I'm sure you are, especially when it is mentioned in a prior post.  Nobody is going without books in this instance."

John:

Well, no one's going without books, but the cross country program near and dear to my heart is still going without needed scholarships. If a bunch of boosters collectively want to finance Saban's $32 million contract, can't someone in charge -- a non-compliant AD, a university chancellor, the school's governing board -- say something to the effect of: "OK, you want Saban? For every $100 (arbitrary number...) you give to his contract, you have to give $1 to finance cross country/wrestling/track scholarships."

The larger question is: Who's running the place? I don't think, to cite an example, the chancellor of Wisconsin is necessarily opposed to paying the market rate for a good head football/basketball coach. But Div. 1 athletics is a different enterprise than, say, the New York Yankees. Can't the folks who run universities demand some sort of equitable treatment for all the athletes at the school? Not total equality, like you have at Div. III schools, but some level of equitable treatment. I think Saban's contract is just a huge leap forward in terms of escalating the cost of doing football business at the Div. 1 level, and I worry about the ripple effect for places like Wisconsin.

I'm still working out the details of how to pay student/athletes, and whether I think it's a good idea. Details to follow if I get that far.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is an in depth article on Jim Delaney, the Commissioner of the Big 10, the most powerful man in college sports:

http://tinyurl.com/y5abeb

[Mike_Young]

If a bunch of boosters collectively want to finance Saban's $32 million contract, can't someone in charge -- a non-compliant AD, a university chancellor, the school's governing board -- say something to the effect of: "OK, you want Saban? For every $100 (arbitrary number...) you give to his contract, you have to give $1 to finance cross country/wrestling/track scholarships."

The larger question is: Who's running the place? I don't think, to cite an example, the chancellor of Wisconsin is necessarily opposed to paying the market rate for a good head football/basketball coach. But Div. 1 athletics is a different enterprise than, say, the New York Yankees. Can't the folks who run universities demand some sort of equitable treatment for all the athletes at the school? Not total equality, like you have at Div. III schools, but some level of equitable treatment. I think Saban's contract is just a huge leap forward in terms of escalating the cost of doing football business at the Div. 1 level, and I worry about the ripple effect for places like Wisconsin.

Phil,
Who runs these places?  Boosters.....If a non compliance asst AD starts telling them what they can do .....he will not for long.....I agree it is a sad situation but there is no turning it back now until we only allow students that should be in college to be participating in these sports....a good read is Feinsteins book  THE LAST AMATEURS...about the Patriot League......

[John_Conley]

Mike, so THAT'S how Thaddeus Young wound up at Tech!?

I know you know this stuff and I think you know that I know this stuff.  That's why I'm saying that it is easy to say what it happenning.  It is easy to say how it 'should' be.  I'm kind of unsure as to how to fix the problem just like I am for Global Warming, Illegal Immigration, Unwed Mothers, Poverty, Homelessness, etc...  What policy do we need?  I'm going to read that Delaney thing in the link tonight.  I'm very interested in an analysis that goes beyond the barstool reaction.

Mike, Minnesota could afford to pay its hockey players.  Alabama-Huntsville also competes at the level.  If Minnesota does pay because it is a revenue sport and Huntsville isn't allowed because they need to subsidize the sport, we now have myriad issues to address.
1 - competetive balance: best players will want to play where they get the most
2 - accounting fraud: it will be important to portray your books in the right light in order to qualify (does the coaches trip to the Junior World Championships get coded in the GL for "university goodwill" in the general budget or "recruiting" and get allocated to the sport?).
3 - players' rights: if they agree to get paid, is there a risk they become mercenaries where they'll be dumped the moment a better player is available? (this already happens in basketball where players are 'recruited over' once in the program and often transfer - yesterday it was former big-time recruit JP Prince that announced).

[Phil McDade]

If a bunch of boosters collectively want to finance Saban's $32 million contract, can't someone in charge -- a non-compliant AD, a university chancellor, the school's governing board -- say something to the effect of: "OK, you want Saban? For every $100 (arbitrary number...) you give to his contract, you have to give $1 to finance cross country/wrestling/track scholarships."

The larger question is: Who's running the place? I don't think, to cite an example, the chancellor of Wisconsin is necessarily opposed to paying the market rate for a good head football/basketball coach. But Div. 1 athletics is a different enterprise than, say, the New York Yankees. Can't the folks who run universities demand some sort of equitable treatment for all the athletes at the school? Not total equality, like you have at Div. III schools, but some level of equitable treatment. I think Saban's contract is just a huge leap forward in terms of escalating the cost of doing football business at the Div. 1 level, and I worry about the ripple effect for places like Wisconsin.

Phil,
Who runs these places?  Boosters.....If a non compliance asst AD starts telling them what they can do .....he will not for long.....I agree it is a sad situation but there is no turning it back now until we only allow students that should be in college to be participating in these sports....a good read is Feinsteins book  THE LAST AMATEURS...about the Patriot League......

Mike:

I've read it; esp. liked the little point guard from Holy Cross, who I think described himself as the worst hoops player in Div. 1.

Why Alabama-Huntsville plays D1 hockey is beyond my abilities to reason, John. I do know that Saban's departure brought him a huge raise, and (presumably) guaranteed money for several years even if he goes 0-11. Saban's players, meanwhile (some of whom may not want to play for him) have to sit out a year if they decide to make a similar switch. That's one of the many skewed features of D1 athletics these days.

 

[Mike_Sweeney]

....a good read is Feinsteins book  THE LAST AMATEURS...about the Patriot League......

Thanks for mentioning. I just ordered it as my wife graduated from Colgate and I am always amazed that they can compete in football, basketball and hockey at such a small school. Nice golf course too!

[John_Conley]

Phil, my favorite passage in the book is when Don DeVoe calls early practice at 6:00 am after a loss and arrives expecting to raise hell then softens when he finds one of his players beat his there and is using the spare moments to study.

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