[Jason Topp]

There have been many attempts to create replicas of the road hole, but I have never heard of one considered remotely as good as the original.  It seems to me that you could build on one almost anywhere.

Am I right that no effort to re-create the Road Hole has been a complete success?

Why?

[Tim Copeland]

Mona Lisa's smile has never been duplicated either

shocker

[Jeff_Brauer]

No modern hotel or railroad will donate their structures as targets.........and mounds and faux structures just don't inspire the same fear as a real building where you might knock someones teacup out of their hand.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason Topp,

# 7 at NGLA is excellent.

The hole has been replicated by CBM, SR and CB.

But, as was mentioned, it's unrealistic to think of duplicating the out of bounds elements which affect the hole.

The road hole green, one of the great greens in golf has been replicated often.

[Jason Topp]

Why is it unrealistic to create the out of bounds risk?  It would seem to me that a driving range would create the perfect opportunity to create such an out of bounds, particularly if combined with a maintenence structure or a barn.

[Jason Topp]

Mona Lisa's smile has never been duplicated either

shocker

But there have been succesful attempts to recreate:

Short
Redan
Biarrritz
Eden (some might argue this one)
Cape
etc., etc.

[Jimmy Muratt]

The Road Hole #8 at Piping Rock is one of my favorites on the course.  The tee shot presents a diagonal carry and the greensite is excellent with the deep pot punker in front and a green with some wonderful pin positions.  The obvious feature that all other renditions of the Road Hole lack is the hotel on the right that makes the tee shot so dramatic.  Of course, if a hole in states had that it would be panned for the encroachment of buildings and real estate.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Why is it unrealistic to create the out of bounds risk?  It would seem to me that a driving range would create the perfect opportunity to create such an out of bounds, particularly if combined with a maintenence structure or a barn.

I belong to a club that has moved its driving range to get its maintenance building out of the way of incoming shots.  Do you think maintenance workers aren't entitled to reasonable protection from incoming golf balls?

As to the range idea, doesn't Royal Lythams have a DR OB situation that isn't nearly as scary as the actual structure.  IMHO, it would have to be an abandoned barn or something, and even then, some local legal authority types would want it torn down to keep kids out as an "attractive nuisance."  It could possibly be a little used barn for the maintenance workers, like fertilizer storage or once a year aerification equipment perhaps.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jason,

I think both Road Holes at Fishers Island are excellent. The 8th and 18th have wonderful risk-reward tee shots with cool greens at the end.

I think you are also making a common mistake that holes have been "recreated." For instance, Charles Blair Macdonald's version of the Short hole - and subsequently those of Seth Raynor and Charles Banks - little resemble the 8th at the Old Course, which is a slight downhill tee shot to a massive double green with no horseshoe feature.


Anthony

[Jason Topp]

I belong to a club that has moved its driving range to get its maintenance building out of the way of incoming shots.  Do you think maintenance workers aren't entitled to reasonable protection from incoming golf balls?

Jeff -
Of course not!

I was thinking of a maintenence shed with the opening away from the direction of play or a cart barn sunk into the ground with the opening away from play.  That option might be too dangerous but I have a hard time thinking that it is impossible to think of something interesting to hit over, with out of bounds angled to the right:

chicken coop
sand hill
waterfall
Rock outcropping
Driving range net
Railway car
Bunkers like those at Royal Melbourne
A top shot bunker
A pond
Trees
Bushes
A quarry
Desert


I probably could think of others if I took more than five minutes.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

I think both Road Holes at Fishers Island are excellent. The 8th and 18th have wonderful risk-reward tee shots with cool greens at the end.

I think you are also making a common mistake that holes have been "recreated." For instance, Charles Blair Macdonald's version of the Short hole - and subsequently those of Seth Raynor and Charles Banks - little resemble the 8th at the Old Course, which is a slight downhill tee shot to a massive double green with no horseshoe feature.


Anthony

Anthony

I recognize that the template holes usually vary from the original.  I have not played any of the holes listed in this thread so I cannot comment on them.  I just have heard relatively lukewarm descriptions of efforts to create road holes compared with many of the other standards. which in many cases are considered superior to the original.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why is it unrealistic to create the out of bounds risk?  

It would seem to me that a driving range would create the perfect opportunity to create such an out of bounds,


Jason,

# 1  Have you ever heard of the words, "legal liability" ?

# 2  Do you understand the difference in the legal
      environment in the UK versus the U.S. ?

And, out-of-bounds doesn't present the same vertical obstacles as a hotel and/or maintainance facilities.

particularly if combined with a maintenence structure or a barn.

Go back and reread question # 1

[Jason Topp]

Why is it unrealistic to create the out of bounds risk?  

It would seem to me that a driving range would create the perfect opportunity to create such an out of bounds,


Jason,

# 1  Have you ever heard of the words, "legal liability" ?

# 2  Do you understand the difference in the legal
      environment in the UK versus the U.S. ?

And, out-of-bounds doesn't present the same vertical obstacles as a hotel and/or maintainance facilities.

particularly if combined with a maintenence structure or a barn.

Go back and reread question # 1

Pat - I have.  In fact it is my profession. Most driving ranges in the US border a hole and the danger of being clocked 100 yards off the driving range tee on a hole that borders it on the right is far greater than the risk associated with hitting it over the back left corner of the range, 300 yards from the driving range tee.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, this may be a wild guess, but I'm just guessing Jason understands legal concepts....  

PS: oops, Jason beat me to the reply..

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm with Pat, the 7th at the National is pretty special. Although the original is in a class by itself. You could never fully copy all of that quirk and how it works.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The Road Hole at Dedham has a road going down the right side. My guess is the club planted trees not too long after the first auto took a tee ball of the windshield.

Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - I have.  In fact it is my profession.

Most driving ranges in the US border a hole and the danger of being clocked 100 yards off the driving range tee on a hole that borders it on the right is far greater than the risk associated with hitting it over the back left corner of the range, 300 yards from the driving range tee.

Jason,

So now you've created a driving range removed from the 1st tee by a quarter to a half of a mile.
That's a little unrealistic, isn't it ?

And, your dictating that that land be used for a range even though good golf holes might be lost due to your constraints.

And, what about all of those golf balls from the range that would litter the 17th and 16th holes, delaying play and possibly causing penalties ?

You want to burden the architect by mandating a driving range with one end immediately adjacent to the entire length of a hole designed to replicate the 17th at TOC ?

What about the road, and the liability connected to same ?

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

So now you've created a driving range removed from the 1st tee by a quarter to a half of a mile.
That's a little unrealistic, isn't it ?

Where did I say that?  I do not understand this point at all.

And, your dictating that that land be used for a range even though good golf holes might be lost due to your constraints.

No.

And, what about all of those golf balls from the range that would litter the 17th and 16th holes, delaying play and possibly causing penalties ?

Not sure where you get that result - although it happens on many courses.

You want to burden the architect by mandating a driving range with one end immediately adjacent to the entire length of a hole designed to replicate the 17th at TOC ?

No - to me a corner could potentially be used as a way to replicate something to hit over.  I listed many other possibilities in my thread.

What about the road, and the liability connected to same ?

What about a cart path, widened to act like the road?

Pat - are you saying it would be impossible to create a hole as good as the road hole?  I don't think it would be, and the range corner is but one of many possibilites I have suggested for doing so in this thread.

[Jason Topp]

I'm with Pat, the 7th at the National is pretty special. Although the original is in a class by itself. You could never fully copy all of that quirk and how it works.

What can't you copy?  The green apparently has been done.  I think the tee shot is possible.  The road is possible.  It seems to me that the contours of the approach are possible.  The only thing that it is not possible to create is the sense of history and the fear of putting a tee ball in a hotel swimming pool.

[ForkaB]

Jason

The swimming pool is indoors and at the other side of the hotel.  Getting a ball into there from the tee would tax even Mucci in his oft-regaled prime.  Of course, now that Herb Kohler owns the joint, maybe a clever piece of plumbing will be installed to allow for this feat to be possible.....

[Jason Topp]

Jason

The swimming pool is indoors and at the other side of the hotel.  Getting a ball into there from the tee would tax even Mucci in his oft-regaled prime.  Of course, now that Herb Kohler owns the joint, maybe a clever piece of plumbing will be installed to allow for this feat to be possible.....

Rich - it is possible I did it.  My tee ball was headed for the chimney.  Not sure where it wound up.

Incidentally, I bought your book through the company you work with and it caused me to start this thread.  Great work again!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - are you saying it would be impossible to create a hole as good as the road hole?  

No, I'm not saying that, and I never did.

What I said is, it's impossible to reasonably duplicate what lies to the right, past the out-of-bounds.

Within the out-of-bounds, I think you can create a good replica of the road hole.  You could even create the out of bounds along the right and berm it, or put a tall wooden fence there, but, you can't recreate the hotel, railway shed and active roads immediately adjacent to the hole.

In the U.S. you can't create a hole where the drive is deliberately intended to endanger non-golfers, removed from the property.

The 7th at NGLA is a great hole.
The Hotel complex bunkers have lost some of their strategic merit due to hi-tech and distance, but, the hole remains a joy to play, especially if the wind up.

The 7th green at NGLA can be played from every one of the 360 degree angles and remain challenging and fun, from almost any distance.  It is one of the best greens in golf.

Making the road hole can and has been done, it's the making of the features off the property that's the difficult part.

I don't think it would be, and the range corner is but one of many possibilites I have suggested for doing so in this thread.


Why the need for a range when any olde O.B will do ?

[ForkaB]

Bill

I would add that there are no railway sheds, nor are they any active roads, but that would just be piling on poor old Pat.....

Jason

Glad you liked the Old Course book, and that it stimulted you to start this interesting thread.  Other than a nice (but inferior to 17 TOC) green, 8 NGLA is not a great golf hole, much less one which comes close to resembling its template.

Surely MacRayBanks have done better elsewhere.  If so, where and far more importantly how and why?

[Jim Franklin]

I would say the best copy of the Road Hole is the reverse road hole at Baltimore Country Club. #6 is called "The Barn Hole" and is a sharp dogleg left par 5. You can cut the corner over the barn to shorten the hole. Tillie says it is one of his 18 best he has done and I agree.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

The Road Hole at Dedham has a road going down the right side. My guess is the club planted trees not too long after the first auto took a tee ball of the windshield.

Anthony

Like a few trees can stop the mighty swings of Dedham golfers trying to get the correct angle into the green....

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