[Darren_Kilfara]

The current thread which Tiger started on the European Club seems to have morphed somewhat into a discussion on the merits of the home hole on the Old Course. I think the arguments for and against the hole are summarised neatly over there, with Pat Ruddy decrying the hole and others like me and Ally McIntosh defending it.

I know the merits of this hole have been discussed here in the past, but not everyone may have seen that discussion, and in any event I'd be interested to actually poll everyone about it - it's a hole that most of us will know fairly well from TV and from seeing it in person (and of course playing it). If you had to pick one of the following options on what you think of the hole, what would you say?

1) Good (to great)
2) Mediocre
3) Bad (to horrible)

Cheers,
Darren

[Tom Huckaby]

(1) for me.  I love the hole, think it fits the place so very perfectly.  I also like the quote someone had about it...  (Pete Dye?) something to the effect of "you should birdie it, you simply should... but you don't."

TH

[wsmorrison]

(1)  I think it is a good hole on a great course.  The setting within the town itself is an interesting one with the crowds that gather around and the R&A close by.  For a seemingly easy finish, especially today given modern balls and implements, there does seem to be a wide scoring spectrum and that's a good thing.  The wind, contours before the green and some of the uneven lies you have to approach from and finally a sloped green make for a variety of scores.  It is a very special place.

[Chris Kane]

(1) I think it's fantastic.  Don't underestimate the difficulty when playing straight into a gale, as I did this morning - hitting a full five-iron over the Valley of Sin is no snack.

[Chris Cupit]

18 at TOC is a fantastic end to a great round.  A definite (1).  IMHO it's a mistake to look at any hole in isolation from the rest of the course.  It's a ROUND of golf, not a series of individual holes and all holes deserve to be viewed in this light.

You can't judge 18 in any way other than as the culmination of the previous 17.

[Richard Muldoon]

1) Great
Options; safe or bold, aerial or ground all of which can vary greatly given the prevalent wind and pin positions.
Throw in the fantastic setting and I could play it all day.
Like the rest of the course it doesn't look much from the TV but once on the ground you realise why most rave about it.
I watched about 20 groups play it and I didn't see a single birdie and the conditions were sunny with a gentle breeze.

[Gary Daughters]

And some people think Charlie Watts is a lousy drummer

[Gene Greco]

18 at TOC is a fantastic end to a great round.  A definite (1).  IMHO it's a mistake to look at any hole in isolation from the rest of the course.  It's a ROUND of golf, not a series of individual holes and all holes deserve to be viewed in this light.

You can't judge 18 in any way other than as the culmination of the previous 17.

Beautifully stated.

Furthermore, there are very few holes in this world I would rather play.

[Bill_McBride]

Put me down as another 1).  I love it.  I love the way it fits into the old town, the way the right side is all OB townhouses but you'd like to have the nerve to drive down that side.  I love the Valley of Sin and the image of Constantine Rocca on his knees.  I love the wynd across the fairway.  Playing 18 to me just puts a final punctuation mark on the round.  I cannot imagine playing TOC in a shotgun start!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is and always will be 1 for me. It is a great closing hole.  I think the 1st hole is a great hole as well. I have played the hole close to 20 times now. I love the simplicity of the hole and its setting, yet having so many strategic options for the better player.  It has the thrill of finishing with a good shot and applause in front of the local community for the high handicap player. I have driven the green and hit a 4 iron for the 2nd shot as well. I have taken it down the road edge trying to drive the green and played over toward 1 tee box. I have layed back and punched drivers below the wind. I have run the ball along the ground and tossed it into the air and let the wind kill it. The shots around the Valley of Sin are to be cherished. I will never forget running a 50 foot putt for birdie and getting an applause from the crowd along the fense. 18 at TOC is not for every course but it is one great hole where it is.

[A.G._Crockett]

This brings us back to an argument/distinction that has been covered many times here, namely separating the hole in question from the other things that go along with it.  Scenery, tradition, etc. factored in, or factored out?

I can't imagine a greater feeling than walking up the 18th at St. Andrews; all of us, at least the first time, probably felt as if we could see the galleries and hear the cheers.  In that respect, it is a great, great hole in the golf world.  It is hallowed ground.  

That said, I'm not sure that the hole anywhere else would be notable.  It lacks most of the concerns that would make it so, including things like the bunkering that makes St. Andrews so special.  

THAT said, the 18th ISN'T anywhere else.  It's the 18th at St. Andrews, and when you arrive there, you have finished the most unusual and special round in all of golf.  It is possible that if the hole was far more demanding, the way we have come to expect 18th holes to be, that it would be all wrong, especially after the 17th.  It might detract from the course; the way it is, the 18th is absolutely perfect, and has to be considered great.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think both 17 and 18 don't really fit todays game. Personally, I like 18, a bit funky, and it certainly has alot of great history, 17 on the other hand is way too penal even for the pros today.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Put me down as one who thinks it is a good hole but not a great hole and somewhat of a letdown after 17.  There has been a lot of drama on the hole but then again there would have been drama on the hole regardless of its merits.  I am not sure the drama is due to the quality of the hole but because of its place in the round.

[Kai Hulkkonen]

1

[wsmorrison]

"Personally, I like 18, a bit funky, and it certainly has alot of great history, 17 on the other hand is way too penal even for the pros today."

I think the 17th is strategic and you are penalized for bad strategy and certainly bad execution.  But why do you say it is way too penal?  It is the penultimate hole resulting in pressure due to place in routing and it is a hard hole design.

I think that today the hole is less penal for pros because of balls and implements.  Maybe the fairway has been constricted a bit too much starting at 285 yards or so off the tee thus taking driver out of a lot of players hands unless into the wind.  Does an analysis of the scoring by top pros show that it is too penal?  I doubt it.  It is a very hard birdie, a hard par but can be played in a way that takes double or worse out of play (Bob Jones came up with an interesting approach).  It is when you have to make birdie that it becomes supremely difficult.

[Chris Kane]

Wayne, the 17th fairway is ridiculously narrow now in the landing zone for a driver, part of the R&A's desperate attempt to show that their inaction on technology hasn't ruined the game.  As Geoff Ogilvy said, symbolically they couldn't have players hitting sand-wedges into the green during the Open, so they narrowed the fairway and grew the rough to force every player to hit 2-iron from the tee.

Cary, if you forget about par, the 17th might be the ultimate strategic hole, save for the ridiculous fairway lines.

[Bob_Huntley]

Let's stick to the point... that is the 18th.

Start a new thread about the 17th.

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

Let's stick to the point... that is the 18th.

Start a new thread about the 17th.

Bob

[Tom Jefferson]

(1) (1) (1)

In my opinion, it's in the top of the GOOD TO GREAT catagory....for it's simplicity, it's many play options, for it's history and sacredness, and for how it holds itself as a grand stage, hard against the village and open to view, any time, by anyone.

Blustery and wet here in Bandon.

Tom

[Jeff_Brauer]

Hate to waffle, but its a high 1 in history or as a museum piece and a high 2 or a low 1 (good, not great) as a hole.  Its best design features are:

1. The setting, including the R and A backdrop and walkway and railing behind the green, which is unique
2. The VOS
3. Tight OB right, wide first fw left, requiring carry/run up through the VOS, which is really just a variation on the theme throughout the course.  

It fits in but is not particularly unique like 17. I gather that the 17th holes used to be more important when match play ruled, since few matches went to 18.  Of course, not all of them made it to 17 either.

Of course, wouldn't change it, or anything about TOC for anything.

[Andy Scanlon]

It's a 1 for me.  I like that it presents the possibility of making any score on it, from a 1 (if you can drive the ball far enough) on up, but it's not necessarily an easy par.  I think that makes for a strong finish.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Darren,

When solely discussing the architectural and playability  merits of the 18th hole at TOC, I think you have to ask yourself the following question.

How would you assess the hole if it was located on some other golf course, anywhere within holes 1 to 18 ?

If it was the 7th or 18th hole at Sussex County CC, what would your opinion of it be.

Is it a star ?  Or is it's stature the beneficiary of being part of a special golf course ?  Is it the standout, or the beneficiary of drafting ?

[Mike Benham]

The 18th is a fabulous hole.  Looking at the scorecard and it should be an easy 4 if not a birdie 3.

For the first time round TOC, it is the easiest tee shot on the course and only because your knees were shaking on #1 ...

But perhaps the hardest approach shot you will face, the culmination of a trip around TOC, a wedge or short iron in your hand (there was no wind) and the single negative swing thought of "Don't thin it over the green ..."

[A.G._Crockett]

Darren,

When solely discussing the architectural and playability  merits of the 18th hole at TOC, I think you have to ask yourself the following question.

How would you assess the hole if it was located on some other golf course, anywhere within holes 1 to 18 ?

If it was the 7th or 18th hole at Sussex County CC, what would your opinion of it be.

Is it a star ?  Or is it's stature the beneficiary of being part of a special golf course ?  Is it the standout, or the beneficiary of drafting ?

Patrick,
But that's the problem, isn't it?  It isn't the 7th or 18th at Sussex County CC; it IS the 18th, following the 17th, at the Old Course.  How do you separate out the individual hole from both the sequence and the surrounds?  

So, to your last paragraph, the answers are "Yes, it IS a star!" at the same time that the answer to the second question is "Yes, it IS the beneficiary of drafting!"

Think Scottie Pippen...

[Mike Hendren]

In my opinion it is a "good" hole, not a letdown in any sense.  The OB and Valley of Sin complement each other nicely. In terms of greatness it has already been trumped by the 17th, not to mention the 11th, 12th and 14th!

I particularly like how the architecture of the hole does not compete with the architecture of the town.  It is the world's greatest lawn, welcoming the fortunate golfer back home for the day.

There, I am verklempt.

Mike

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()