[JMorgan]

Not all golf architects -- especially when they are starting out in the profession -- have the opportunity to design a course de novo on a piece of prime real estate.  Taking a cue from Tom Doak's example of Augusta as the extreme in Anatomy of a Golf Course, what are some examples, if any, of excellent golf courses that have been laid out on a piece of property with an elevation change *greater* than 150 feet between low and high points?   Try to find examples from different eras -- say, pre-WWII, 1945-1980, and 1980-present day.  If you find an example, was the architect(s) in an early or late stage of his/their career?  Bonus points for examples where earthmoving was kept to a minimum.

[Joe Hancock]

Gil Hanse, relatively early in his solo career, designed Rustic Canyon with over 300 feet elevation change and earth moving was kept to a minimum.

All above information is recalled from memory, so the chance of error is higher than average.

By the way, can I cash in the bonus points for cash or prizes?

Joe

[Doug Ralston]

My wheelhouse!

Eagle Ridge in Eastern Kentucky has much more than 150 ft of elevation change in the brilliant Appalachian's. This course not only has big slopes, it has a big slope [144]. It plays through valleys, over ridges, and up draws. It plays across chasms as well as streams, creeks and sand traps. It is magnificent. It is beautiful. It is an Art Hills Co [Steve Forrest is the actual main designer] therefor I have to shout to try to get GCA Members to go and experience it.

It is also very minimalist. Very little earth was moved. If it has a problem, it is that the course may be too challenging to encourage people to get so far out of the way to play it on a regular basis. But I always will!

BTW; #13 is a 325yd drivable par-4 which tees from a ledge 240 ft above the fairway. Virtually no one ever just hits one tee shot there. Too fun!

Also on the course is #4, a gorgeous but terribly difficult par-5, with the toughest 2nd shot I have ever seen. A blast to try, though.

Eagle Ridge, at Yatesville Lake State Park, near Louisa, Kentucky. do it!

Doug

[cary lichtenstein]

Gil Hanse, relatively early in his solo career, designed Rustic Canyon with over 300 feet elevation change and earth moving was kept to a minimum.

All above information is recalled from memory, so the chance of error is higher than average.

By the way, can I cash in the bonus points for cash or prizes?

I thought Rustic Canyon was pretty flat, not 300 feet of elevation change.

Highland Links in Nova Scotia and Yale both qualify

Joe

[Gary Slatter]

White Witch GC in Montego Bay (2000), has 600 ft elevation changes.  Robert Von Hagge late in his career, assisted by Rick Baril, early in his career.  Great views, similar look to many holes (downhill par threes). Has several excellent par fours - #9 and #13 are my favourites.  Has one really quirky par four #15.  The course has a slipping problem, its slipping down the mountain a few feet every year. Operated by Marriott Golf, putter carriers included in golf fee.
Next door the Cinnamon Hill course  has 500 foot elevation changes from sea level up. Much better routing and variation of holes, also Von Hagge/Rick Baril 2000. Great caddies at Cinnamon Hill.

[JMorgan]

Where would you guys rank these courses in the Top 200?

Joe, I think the entire Rustic property had around 250 feet elevation change... but does the golf course proper have this much slope?...  Paging Mr. Naccarato.  

(Oh, and you can choose from the following:  one of those triangle tee games from Cracker Barrel, a harmonica made in Japan, or a pharmaceutical keychain that lights up, courtesy of my mother-in-law, who cases all of the displays at the Amer. College of Surgeons every year for freebies.)

Doug, what is the link to your course?  Is it a muni?

[Tom_Doak]

James:  One thing my 150-foot rule did not take into account was the SHAPE of the property.  If the property is long and narrow and slopes from one end to the other, like Rustic Canyon, the elevation change will be less apparent than if the property is square and you have to work up and down the same variation of elevation more often.

But, for reference, Pasatiempo has nearly three hundred feet of elevation change from the 12th tee to the 2nd green.  The Plantation Course at Kapalua probably has a lot more than that, but I've never seen the numbers on a map.  Stone Eagle has the most elevation change of any course I've built to date.

[JMorgan]

Ok so far the list:

Rustic Canyon
Eagle Ridge
Highland Links
White Witch
Cinnamon Hill
Pasatiempo
The Plantation at Kapa
Stone Eagle
Lakota
Abama
Timberstone
Eagles Mere
Cateechee
Tot Hill
Sugarloaf
Lookout Mountain
French Creek
Cabo del Sol - Ocean
Olympic Club -Lake
Homestead - Cascade
Crans-sur-Sierre
Querencia
River's Edge
Capilano
Cape Breton
Pebble Beach
Spyglass Hill
Riviera

Tom, let's include all properties regardless of shape, just for the sake of argument, and see where it leads us.  

*Yale removed
 

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

How does the high-to-low elevation change at Stone Eagle compare to that at Rock Creek?  Before your last post, I'd have guessed that Rock Creek has a larger high-to-low elevation change if only because of the shape of the routing along the fall of the creek.  

Where would you guys rank these courses in the Top 200?

Joe, I think the entire Rustic property had around 250 feet elevation change... but does the golf course proper have this much slope?...  Paging Mr. Naccarato.  

James, If my memory serves, Rustic slopes over 250 feet from the 13th green to the 4th green.  That being said . . . I think the high point of the course is actually the 16th tee and I think it is over 300 feet above the low point on the course.

Not sure if I understand the rest of your question, but I'd guess that the "golf course proper has that much slope," since it is pretty much end to end golf holes all the way up the canyon.

The down-canyon slope at Rustic might not be very visible but it has to be taken into consideration on almost every shot and definitely on every putt.   It is definitely an integral part of the character of the course.  

[Jay Cox]

Is the difference between the highest and lowest points at Yale really 150 feet?  I always got the feeling that, despite all the internal movement, there wasn't much gradual side-to-side elevation change -- and therefore that the high-to-low distance on the course wasn't that much greater than, say, the high-to-low distance on the 10th hole.

Is 7 green the highest point, and 12 tee the lowest?

[Jim Nugent]

How about some of those Jim Engh courses, such as Lakota Canyon?  

[James Bennett]

I saw the Abama Golf Course in Tenerife in October 2005.  The Tenerife Open was held that week and was won by John Bickerton.  The course was designed by Dave Thomas.

In terms of slope, the course has 790 feet of elevation change.  The clubhouse is set in the middle of the property, climbing to the top at the 5th green, then descending on 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11 to the bottom (#11 green) by dropping 790 feet.  Essentially all in play.  (hole 7 is a short, flat par 3).  Then, the battle is on back up to #18 by the clubhouse.  Even the holes without elevation change between tee and green (eg 1, 18) have a significant drop and climb from tee to shot point to green.

Some interesting holes (I have photos if people are interested) but I would hate to walk the course carrying my own clubs or pulling a trolley.  Most of the caddies at the Tenerife Open had understanding players - light carry bags.  Some had the full size bag though.

A couple of holes reminded me of a black slope ski run.  The cart paths had double switchbacks on a couple of holes (descending on #9, ascending from #4 green to #5 tee.

Just to repeat - 790 feet of elevatuion change from top to bottom, plus climbs up and down on some holes.  Only three flat holes, all par 3's.

James B

[Doug Ralston]

Another such course which I have heard raves about [not so much here, though I do not know why] is Timberstone in Iron Mountain, Michigan. With so much said about Greywalls here, surely a few of you have tried this one, also in the UP? How does it play?

Doug

[JMorgan]

Any non-USA examples besides Tenerife?

[Brad Tufts]

According to Google Earth...the terrain feature, Kapalua Plantation's highest feature, the 17th tee, sits at roughly 540 feet, and the lowest, the gully that runs across #s 1 and 9, sits at about 70 feet.

#17 drops about 190 feet from tee to green, and #18 drops about 215 feet.

Also, the chasm between holes 5 and 6 is roughly 210 feet deep.

These #s could be a little off, as the resolution isn't that good for Maui...

As far as I can tell for Yale, the course sits between 185 feet (9th green) and 260 feet (13th tee).  That's only 75 feet of change...

[JMorgan]

James, If my memory serves, Rustic slopes over 250 feet from the 13th green to the 4th green.  That being said . . . I think the high point of the course is actually the 16th tee and I think it is over 300 feet above the low point on the course.

243 feet.

[wsmorrison]

William Flynn designed the "new" course at Eagles Mere in the hills of upstate Pennsylvania in 1924 after successfully redesigning and adding 12 holes to the old course in 1917.  The overall elevation change on the property was 280 feet.  There were two holes (9 and 18) that each played 135 feet uphill!  The biggest single drop on a hole was 180 feet on the 14th hole.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

You're right, Rock Creek will have more fall than Stone Eagle because of the end-to-end length of the property.  The highest point is the seventh tee at 4960 feet, the lowest point the 17th green at about 4600.  But, it's still most of a year away from being playable, so I didn't think about it for comparison.

I think it will be very walkable in spite of those numbers.

[JMorgan]

William Flynn designed the "new" course at Eagles Mere in the hills of upstate Pennsylvania in 1924 after successfully redesigning and adding 12 holes to the old course in 1917.  The overall elevation change on the property was 280 feet.  There were two holes (9 and 18) that each played 135 feet uphill!  The biggest single drop on a hole was 180 feet on the 14th hole.

Thanks, Wayne.  I'll add Eagles Mere to the list above.  Where would you and Tom P. rank this course within the Flynn canon?

[Tim Gavrich]

Sugarloaf up in Maine probably has a great deal of slope to it.  If I remember correctly, the photogenic #11 drops 122' over the Carrabassett River.  I'm sure there are another 30' of elevation on the golf course above that tee.

I think there's a hole at community-club Mountain Air out in North Carolina that drops over 300' from tee down to green.  Crazy!

What's the difference between high and low at Tot Hill Farm?  Cateechee?

[wsmorrison]

James,

Hard to say.  The course was let go in the Depression and the club continued operating the Old Course.  In fact only 9 holes were completed on the New Course with the other nine clear cut but not complete.  I would say it was meant to be a championship caliber course to complement their oldie but goodie.  We went exploring through brush and woods finding old tees, greens and bunkers after 75 years of neglect.  That was fun detective work.

[JMorgan]

I can probably add Lookout Mountain as well.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Gil Hanse's French Creek (I'm a member) certainly has > 150 feet elevation change.  The high - #7 tee - the low - #12 green (across the street from Stonewall Original's #2 green).

Gil didn't move much dirt here.

(by the way, it's public now - the owner of French Creek, has the course up for sale.  No idea what it'll mean, but I'm not terribly concerned at this point)

[Jeff_Mingay]

We're dealing with a lot of slope here, at Sagebrush, presently. In fact, at most holes we're dealing problems presented by dramatic slope - with smallish fills, here and there, and a single blast so far.

I haven't looked at the topo map in detail recently. I'll have to pull it out and let you know exactly what the elevation change is. Like Doak's Rock Creek, Sagebrush is a slopey site where I think the course will end up being walkable though.  

[JMorgan]

We're dealing with a lot of slope here, at Sagebrush, presently. In fact, at most holes we're dealing problems presented by dramatic slope - with smallish fills, here and there, and a single blast so far.

I haven't looked at the topo map in detail recently. I'll have to pull it out and let you know exactly what the elevation change is. Like Doak's Rock Creek, Sagebrush is a slopey site where I think the course will end up being walkable though.  

Jeff, I'll leave works in progress like Sagebrush and Rock Creek off the list for now, but I for one would love to see any new pics of your work on the course since your last post.

I would think many of Thompson's courses have elevation changes greater than 150 feet, no?

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