[Jason Topp]

I think of the difference between a penal course and a strategic course as a continuum.  

On one end - a strategic course provides the largest number of interesting options for playing a hole.  

On the other end - a penal hole dictates one way to play the hole and punishes the player if he does not hit the required shot.

It is relatively straightforward to categorize holes along this spectrum, with the 14th at St. Andrews far on the strategic side and the 17th at TPC of Sawgrass fitting far on the penal side.

It seems less straightforward to categorize courses.
No course completely fits on one end or the other of this spectrum.  

Nonetheless, I can think of many candidates for the strategic end of this equation - St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne, Sand Hills, etc.

I'm not sure I can identify courses that most fit the penal end of the spectrum.  Do you have examples and why?

 

[Tom Huckaby]

PGA West - Stadium Course - hit the targets or else.  But that being said, there are some attack choices on some holes... the most perfect example to me would be:

Fort Ord - Bayonet (circa 1980) - keep it between the trees and underbrush or else.  No choice whatsoever on any golf hole - just keep straight or die.  It's been softened as it is today.

TH

[David Stamm]

Jason, the first course that springs to mind is TPC Stadium at PGA West.  If you've played there, you know what I mean. Dye pretty much tells you where to hit the shot and then beats the pulp out of you if you don't play it that way. Some of the bunkers there have to be seen to be believed, especially the waste bunker on 16. The course says one thing to me, tread softly.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

The USA Today Golf Blog recently brought up this exact subject:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/golfersworld/

[BCrosby]

The USGA will give you one almost every year. The PGA has started doing it too. Looks like ANGC has joined in as well.

Playing corridors are so narrow that the only choice is to hit it straight down the middle. That dictates approaches to greens. Anything off that line will be immediately punished. That's a pretty good working definition of "penal".

The courses themselves may not be penal, but they sure as heck are set up to be.

I had an interesting conversation with Larry Nelson last weekend at the Tour Championship. He said the fw's at Oakmont in '83(PGA?) were so narrow that after a couple of bogies on the first holes on the first day, he decided to stop looking down fairway and just hit it blind, as it were. He said he just squared up with the tee markers and swung. He ended up winning the tournament.

In other words, he thought the best way to deal with a penal set up was to close your eyes and ignore the architectural features.

That's what we've come to in the zeal to "test" players.

Bob
 

[Garland Bayley]

Almost any Pete Dye course before the touring pros play it and demand changes?

[Will E]

I haven't found anything that compares to THE MONSTER at the Concord Hotel.

I think it's ranked #1 by Curious JJ

The "old" Fort Ord fits the bill too.

I wouldn't put PGA West in the mix, too many choices.

[Chris Cupit]

All right, this is my first post, so please be gentle.

Wouldn't Oakmont be represenative of the classic penal course?  In fact, I think it helped introduce the penal school of architecture in America?

In Atlanta, where I am from, PB Dye's, Atlanta National has some very penal holes--1,2,3,6,10,11,12,13, 17 and 18 in particular.  On the other holes, while they are hard, a player could play around the hazards so I don't think of the entire course as penal.

Also, Wolf Run in Zionsville, Indiana, a Steve Smyers course, has at least one hole--# 13 I think-- that is a 230 yard par 3 across native grasses and over about thirteen bunkers to a fairly severe green that tilts away and from left to right.  I would not describe the entire course as penal, but that hole is a good example of how a penal hole or shot can be quite dramatic and fun, despite being very difficult.

To me, Wolf Run, while maybe more difficult overall than Atlanta National was more interesting as there semed to be more strategic options throughout the course.  

I am not sure how much fun a daily dose of 18 holes of the penal school would be for the average golfer, but to have a hole that every now and then says, "You have no choice but to hit it here big boy" at least gets your blood moving!

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
Welcome! I would tend to agree with your take. Wolf Run as a whole I don't think is especially penal even if it is really hard. #13 would have to qualify though, if you can't hit the shot (or at least hit it far enough to go long), short is really tough no matter where the heck the ball actually ends up.

[Will E]

"You have no choice but to hit it here big boy"

A perfect way to describe a penal course!

When the pro shop sells more advil than golf balls it's a good indication of what you're in for.

[Jason Topp]

Interesting that PGA West is listed.  I always understood that the course has options, even if the consequences for failure are great.

I would think of Torrey Pines South as a more prototypical penal course.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Interesting that PGA West is listed.  I always understood that the course has options, even if the consequences for failure are great.

I would think of Torrey Pines South as a more prototypical penal course.  

It does have options - that's why I checked myself.  BUT... the consequences for failure are indeed SO great, that it has to be considered.  Put it this way - you're going to lose WAY WAY WAY more golf balls at PGA West-Stadium than you are at Torrey-South.  That's not even close.  But TP-South is a very difficult golf course due to the length.  While I would never cite it as any marvel of strategy, heck there are adjoining fairways on a lot of holes, so it's also not particularly penal.  It's just LONG.

TH

[David Stamm]

I'll second Hucks on the Torrey assesment. Torrey's difficulty can be attributed to the length. If you miss a shot there (and I ought to know 'cause I've missed many there) you can still recover. PGA West may not be penal in it's absolute form, but if you miss shots there, it's going to be painful.

Pine Valley maybe the earliest and best (in terms of quality) example of penal. Tom Paul can better expand on this, but it was bulit w/ the very good player in mind. But it's not strictly a penal course as it mixes in strategic options throughout.

[Pete Lavallee]

Tom,

Where are the options at the redesigned Torrey Pines South?

I would agree with Jason; it's the poster child for penal architeture.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pete - you'd obviously no better than I would re the options.  But to me "penal" means penalty strokes, either direct or indirect, and I don't see much of either happening at Torrey.  So call it anti-strategic and I'd agree with you (if you feel that's what it is - you know the course WAY better than I do).... I just don't see it as particularly penal, that's all.  THis is likely just a case of two different interpretations of the same word.

TH

[Phil Benedict]

It's interesting that PGA West is a leading candidate for penal course.  I don't disagree that it's penal, but I played it for the first time last year and really liked it, even for $235.  I had previously played the La Quinta Mountain Course, which I thought was overpriced and gimmicky.  Thus I was prepared to dislike PGA West, but I thought it was fun.  There are some challenging shots (long par 3's over water), but good shots are rewarded.

It also had a neat look because they only overseeded the fairways, so it doesn't look as unnaturally green as some desert courses.  There is some visual deception in terms of where you need to aim off the tee.

[David Stamm]

Pete, I think it may be penal for the short hitter if everyone hits from the same tee.  I wouldn't say it's penal per say, just shall we say, undemocratic. The long hitter there has all the advantage, with little strategic options for the shorter player. It's just very, very long and maybe a little boring now after the redesign.

[David Stamm]

Phil, I think PGA West can be fun as long as you try not to take it too seriously. If you take it for what it is and what it was intended to be, the "most difficult in the world" then it can be a unique experience. Amazing what Dye was able to achieve w/ an abandoned orange orchard.

[Bill Gayne]

Jason,

If you want to contrast penal and strategic at the very top in an every day set-up then read Ran's course review of Royal County Down and Royal Portrush. A pair of links courses in fairly close proximity to each other.

[peter_mcknight]

I would agree with the Monster at Concord, Oakmont, PGA West that people have already discussed.

For a normal 15-20 handicapper, one would suppose Pine Valley could be thrown into the equation as an example of a penal course.  Perhaps even Spyglass.

Before 2001, I would have thrown in the Eisenhower course at Industry Hills because they insisted on maintaining 4-5 inch rough all around the place which dicated only one very narrow option on pretty much all of the holes.  With the rough down to 2 inches today, it isn't as penal as it was before 2001.

How about adding Carnousite to the list?

[Brad Tufts]

The most penal course I've seen is Princeville.

Also Bradford CC in Mass....if you ever have the opportunity to play here....run the other direction...

[TEPaul]

Jason:

Most ironically the course generally considered to be the prototype of strategic architecture is TOC while the course that may've been the true prototype of penal architecture was TOC when it had 40 yard wide playing corridors with penalty (gorse) on either side all the way along and players playing those same corridors both ways against each other before the course was widened.

If this doesn't bespeak the nuancy gray areas of the philosophies of golf course architecture, then what does?  

[Tim Gavrich]

I'd find it hard to believe that there do exist golf courses that can be classified as "purely penal," anyway.  And, for that matter, vice versa.  Now I've never seen or played it, but isn't the 17th at Sand Hills (par three, yes?) a genuinely penal hole?

But then again, can't we draw strategy out of any penal hole?  I mean, if the pin on 17 at TPC Sawgrass is on the right side, don't we still have the option (albeit far more constricted) of hitting at the middle of the green, rather than going for the hole?

Furthermore, isn't the essence of a great strategic golf hole the fact that the bold route is fraught with peril while the conservative route is at least decently less-guarded?

If I had to pick a golf course as the most penal I've played, I'd put Gillette Ridge on that pedestal.  Almost no strategy; many holes with significant danger on two or three sides of play.  Two strategic holes: 1 (par four, playing down the right near trees makes it shorter) and 13 (options on a driveable par four).  Aside from that, it's pretty brutal and not a lot of fun.

[cary lichtenstein]

Oakmont is clearly the grand prize winner

[David_Madison]

TPC-Eagle Trace, which hosted the Honda Classic for a number of years in South Florida was brutally penal. Few options anywhere, just the avoidance of pain. Water and OB everywhere. Under firm and windy conditions some holes were all but unplayable. It was the second TPC course, an attempt to emulate TPC Sawgrass but without any of the charm. Kenny Knox won the tournament one year shooting an 81 in the third round.

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