[Garland Bayley]

A while back, someone posed the same question about a sandtrap in the middle a green like the one at Riviera.

These two holes have a fairway that is about 10 yards wide between dunes that are more than 10 yards high. Are there any other golf holes in the world like this? Or, has the minimalistic approach used to build this course led to something truly unique?

[Dan_Callahan]

How about this:

[Garland Bayley]

Dan,

For that bit of irrelevance, you are assigned a 500 word essay on the playing stragegy of what is depicted in my pictures vs what is depicted in yours.

Prof. Bayley

[Dan_Callahan]

Mine comes with a pitcher of beer and better looking shoes.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Even though it may be natural, those pictures look like containment mounding taken to the extreme.  With the pitch of those hillsides, it appears that they will funnel most balls back into the fairway.

The bowling alley analogy doesn't appear far off, especially if you put the  inflatable bumpers in their and make it bumper bowling.  

[Garland Bayley]

Does anyone know this Dan Callahan character? Is his taste in shoes really that bad?

[Aaron Katz]

"What a delight it is see a well thought out approach shot take the slope on the left (or right) of the green, funnel back down toward the hole, race up the slope on the other side of the green, and finally funnel back down toward the hole."

Excerpt from the lost GCA review of Bowling Alley Golf Club.

[Joe Hancock]

No one else sees the potential if a drive gets blown sideways? Man that looks like a fun recovery.

Joe

[Garland Bayley]

Even though it may be natural, those pictures look like containment mounding taken to the extreme.  With the pitch of those hillsides, it appears that they will funnel most balls back into the fairway.

The bowling alley analogy doesn't appear far off, especially if you put the  inflatable bumpers in their and make it bumper bowling.  

The place where the analogy breaks down is that if you drive it far enough off line to miss a normal sized fairway, here you are facing the blind shot from hell with a good chance of having a very steep lie to boot.

[JSlonis]

What a crazy looking hole.

Wouldn't the strategy for this hole have to be a "low-screaming cut" tee shot that hits on the cartpath numerous times before gently rolling onto the front of the the green?

[Adam Clayman]

This look is also found on that Marion Hollins course in Aptos. The first hole I believe. It may now be the tenth with the wisdom imposed by such greats as American Golf Co.

Also, I suspect those who think the ball will actually run anywhere, is being fooled. Those hillside are as poorly maintained for run outs as the ones at Gold Mtn.

[Tom Huckaby]

This look is also found on that Marion Hollins course in Aptos. The first hole I believe. It may now be the tenth with the wisdom imposed by such greats as American Golf Co.

Seascape GC - and the hole is indeed now the 10th - nines were switched several years ago.  It does have this "funnel" look, but it's a LOT wider than the Astoria hole, and the sides are rough with the bounce down chances being 50/50 at best.  There are also more trees.  But it is basically the same principle....

TH

[Garland Bayley]

Tom,

How deep is the funnel at Seascape?

[James Bennett]

The teeshot on #15 at NSW GC.  Played between sandhills (not as severe in height, but with dense local vegetation making misses more heavily penalised).  Slightly uphill into the saddle with balls running down into the middle of the saddle.

The hole then turns right, and plays to a green slightly elevated above the surface.

A concave teeshot, followed by a convex (slightly) green.

The tee shot is similar.

James B

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland - I'm not good at estimating distance on sight, and REALLY not good at estimating such based on memory.   I"d just say based on the pick of Astoria, it is deeper - that is you tee off higher above it and the sides go up higher - by a factor of at least 50%.  The golf hole is also 500+ yards.  If anything it's easier than the Astoria hole... it's darn near impossible to miss the funnel completely at Seascape, whereas based on the pics I'd think that was VERY possible at Astoria.

TH

[Garland Bayley]

James,

I fail to see the similarity. Perhaps you can illuminate us further.

[peter_p]

Jimmy,
   It depends on how much they mow the side dunes. I've played many a tournament round when crampons are optional.
They've also been deshrubbed.
  As far as the wind blows, in the summer you just aim at the top of the opposing dune and let the wind bring it back. In the winter and storm winds, all bets are off.
   One of the toughest holes is the 10th, which is a 110-140 yard hole runing south on top of the dune. Left and long are is OB. Usually a quartering helping wind, but you're hitting from the lee of the clubhouse bar. It has been eased by a bunker left and irrigation. Best handled as a pitch and run.

[JESII]

The teeshot on #15 at NSW GC.  Played between sandhills (not as severe in height, but with dense local vegetation making misses more heavily penalised).  Slightly uphill into the saddle with balls running down into the middle of the saddle.

The hole then turns right, and plays to a green slightly elevated above the surface.

A concave teeshot, followed by a convex (slightly) green.

The tee shot is similar.

James B

JB,

I played NSW, and this ain't no NSW.

The funnel effect is there from the tee (garland, the picture is from the green looking back), but not one tenth the degree of this picture. I think Jamie Slonis has it pegged.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The funnel effect is there from the tee (garland, the picture is from the green looking back), but not one tenth the degree of this picture. I think Jamie Slonis has it pegged.

I realize the picture is from the green. But, it appears to me that the hole has a normal width, fairly flat fairway for the landing area of the drive.

Jamie certainly has the operative word low pegged.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

There’s a similar hole at the Par 4 16th in the Isle of Wight at Freshwater Bay with a steep bank to the left and a flat fairway at the bottom about 10m wide, except instead of  the bank on the right there’s an out of bounds.

The grass on the bank is kept at semi-rough height and will hold a ball landing there, preventing it from running back down the hill.

The strategy is to play for the flat part at the bottom of the hill – if you end up in the slope of the left hand bank it requires a balancing act to hit an accurate wedge into a two tiered green – not an easy proposition.

Garland, will the banks hold a ball or will it just run back to the middle of the fairway?

[JESII]

the funnel effect is leading up to and over the saddle in the fairway. The picture shown is not a great illustration of the hole. On top of that, this hole is not in the same class as yours with respect to hitting down a funnel.

I will question your assesment of the fairway being 10 yards wide and the peak-to-peak distance being equivalent to a "normal sized fairway". I have never been to this course, but for your statement to be accurate the cart-path must be about 2 feet wide. Now that would be unique!

[Garland Bayley]

the funnel effect is leading up to and over the saddle in the fairway. The picture shown is not a great illustration of the hole. On top of that, this hole is not in the same class as yours with respect to hitting down a funnel.

I will question your assesment of the fairway being 10 yards wide and the peak-to-peak distance being equivalent to a "normal sized fairway". I have never been to this course, but for your statement to be accurate the cart-path must be about 2 feet wide. Now that would be unique!

Just mark the edges of the cart path on a post it. Then at that point in the hole see if you can't get between 4 and 5 of them in the fairway. Across the top I get about 13. That makes the cart path 2 yards, the fairway 9 yards and peak to peak about 26 yards.

Am I doing anything wrong here?

[James Bennett]

JES II

I agree, it is not the same.  But, it is 'like' it.  A concave fairway.  Hit it within the width, and the ball funnels down to the middle.  Miss that width, and a horrendous outcome (at NSW probably lost ball, in the picture a shot from the wrong tunnel).  The width at NSW is perhaps 30 or 40 yards wide.  Perhaps longer at your length off the tee Sulli.

Garland, as Sulli pointed out, the NSW screensaver shot is of #15 green (the slightly convex aspect).  If you look back in the picture, you will see the turning point in the dogleg.  The saddle is just visible.  It bottlencks moreso as you return to the tee.

James B

[Garland Bayley]

James,

Understood. The hole at NSW essentially requires the long ball off the tee and then an approach, or so it seems to me. The diagram on the website shows trees to be driven through or over, thereby leading to my long ball conclusion.

I played the hole at Astoria with 5 wood - 7 iron. I believe I could have played it just as well with 7 iron - 5 wood. If I played it often and found I got the ball onto the fairway with a 7 iron significantly more often than with 5 wood, I think I would choose 7 iron off the tee every time.

[James Bennett]

Garland

If you strike #15 at NSW into the wind, it is the most frightening tee shot.  Downwind, it may well be relatively ho-hum for the better player.  

I have never been in that 'better player' category.  Sulli is.

I recall playing #7 at NSW for the first time - a drive and a nine-iron (down-wind).  Played it next day into the wind, and drive and three-iron was the result.  Suddenly, an 'easy hole' (so I thought) was pretty tough.  So many holes at NSW have that attribute, including the concave funnel on #15 tee-shot.

James B

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