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T_MacWood

Competing for the prime project
« on: October 30, 2006, 07:01:41 AM »
What project - recent or in the past - attracted the greatest competion among architects...in others words was the most heavily sought?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 07:09:53 AM »
I guess a lot of architects sought the job for the #7 course at St. Andrews, although not a lot of Americans ... I didn't even hear about it until they were down to the short list.

And of course everybody in the world was being considered for the last course at Bandon and for the next one, if you believe everything you read here, even though both courses were a fait accompli long before they were officially announced.

My impression is that most of these "competitions" are in fact a lot smaller than most people think.  I've met few prospective clients whose minds were really wide open to a bunch of different candidates.  If a lot of real estate dollars are at stake, they want somebody they think is "bankable", and that list is pretty short.  If they want the best course period, there's a different list of candidates, but there are still only a handful who have proven themselves to be in that class, and you're likely to pick one of them over an unknown unless you REALLY like them (and/or you don't have the money to choose the proven guys).  If they are on a budget, they're likely to choose someone reasonably local to keep their expenses down, or someone who has built a successful course close by.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 07:24:32 AM »
Tom,
I have no doubt you know what your talking about here, but would you've answered the same way 15 years ago...before you were one of the "handful who have proven themselves"?
I think I know a few architects who you probably don't count in your handful who are very capable of building the best golf course...period.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 09:26:53 AM »
But Don, do you think those people are really on the list of an owner looking to build "HIS" course? The chalk seems logical to me under the conditions Tom set.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2006, 10:17:29 AM »
Was there a lot of competition for the property at Erin Hills?

It is a fantastic site.

wsmorrison

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 10:40:56 AM »
The contemporary plans for William Flynn's design and Donald Ross's design for CC York might be the only documented evidence of 2 classic era architects competing at the same time for the same project where the clubhouse site was already dictated and the grounds for golf predetermined.  The analysis of the two very different plans is a fascinating study.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 10:41:22 AM by Wayne Morrison »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 12:55:07 PM »
What about MacKenzie and Ross's competition for Augusta?

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 02:03:53 PM »
Palmetto Bluffs near Hilton Head has one JN course called May RIver + 22,000 acres. I hear C & C, Doak and one other architect are doing the other 3 courses.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John Kavanaugh

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 02:06:49 PM »
What was the competition like to finish Pine Valley after Crump croaked..

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2006, 02:20:50 PM »
To go along w/ SPDB, I believe ANGC was the only project Ross solicted himself for and not get. Michael Fay can shed more light in that regard.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2006, 02:22:05 PM »
In the minds of those controlling the decision on Augusta, was there any competition at all?

wsmorrison

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2006, 04:33:00 PM »
John,

The decision as to how Pine Valley was to be finished (12-15 weren't complete at the time of Crump's death in 1918) is an interesting one and did not involve a competition that I'm aware of.  Tom Paul is the man to tell us as he knows more about the evolution of the course than anyone.

As a fill-in until he is able to post, I believe Hugh Wilson was engaged to oversee the finish of the course.  Crump's two best friends, Dr. Carr and W.P. Smith, were independently questioned about Crump's intentions and then Flynn was brought in to finish the course according to the concepts presented by Carr and Smith.
The work was completed sometime between Crump's death in 1918 and prior to 1921.  
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 04:33:28 PM by Wayne Morrison »

T_MacWood

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2006, 07:04:48 AM »
I'm curious why Alison was asked to review Flynn's plan at Shinnecock. What input to Macdonald have, if any and was Banks considered?

Didn't Trent Jones and Dick Wilson compete over Royal Montreal?

It seems to me these competitions were not publicized and unless you have access to internal club documents you won't find them.

Site or projects that I would think would attract a lot of interest: Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Shinnecock, Seminole, ANGC, St. Andrews-Eden, Muirfield (redesign), Banff, Fishers Island, Eastward Ho!, Chiberta, Timber Point, Bethpage, Riviera, Bel Air.

wsmorrison

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 08:01:53 AM »
Tom,

That's a very good point.  We don't know what the motivation was to bring Alison in to review the plans.  In Alison's 6 1/2 page report, dated May 15, 1929 he characterized the general land for the golf course (at this stage it was expected to be three nines); the framework for the design, "The framework actually proposed does not require much general comment.  The total length is adequate; the distribution of length is excellent; changes of direction are frequent; natural features are admirably used, and those not used are reduced to a bed-rock minimum."   Alison wrote a hole by hole detail review; a discussion about Flynn's unique planting plan, "On the low land it is the intention to place high growth on the higher portions, and low growth on the lower portions, and to produce in this manner an illusion that the ground is undulating."  Finally, Alison concludes "...We have said that some of the land is lacking in natural feature...It is natural that we should have looked ot see whether we could avoid in any manner this comparatively mediocre land.  But we must not lose sight of the fact that there are few courses which have so little featureless land.  If a coldly critical eye is turned upon some classic courses, it will be observed that they have several holes which owe much to Art and little to Nature.  We may also remember that the beauty of the scenery is an enormous asset in your case.  With this to your advantage you can easily afford a few artificial holes.  

We may also consider that the greater part of the land is of exceptional merit.  

We are entirely satisfied that Mr. Flynn's plans are as good as can be made on this site and the proposed course will prove to e of the first order."

Pretty good praise from Alison, whom Flynn declined to go into business with 6 years earlier. Interestingly, Flynn's solution to the flatter land was to create undulating sandy waste to introduce strategy and aesthetic qualities where it was lacking.  He did so in a way that tied in beautifully to the surrounds creating a harmony of design.  Where the land had more topographic movement, he relied on natural features to dictate strategy.  In areas that required more engineering (such as the 9th green and the removal of the ridge fronting the 14th green) he was able to hide the architecture and make it look natural.  Flynn's planting plan, though not used (probably because of the expense and the onset of the Depression) was brilliant.

But why was Alison brought in?  Was he more famous than Flynn?  Except for a small 9-hole course west of the Tappan Zee, Flynn did not have any projects in NY at the time.  Juan Trippe recommended Flynn to Lucien Tyng.  Perhaps Trippe knew of Flynn based on Flynn's work for Glenn Curtiss and his other Florida projects, particularly Boca Raton in addition to Atlantic City CC, Cascades, Pine Valley, The Country Club, etc.

I doubt Macdonald or Banks were brought in to compete for the Shinnecock job.  Macdonald stole their flag and chef and Banks was a close follower.  Flynn's use of the natural ground as much as possible and his architecture based on naturalism (he was the Nature Faker) appealed to the Club.  His attention to costs and accurate estimates was also something these businessmen appreciated and responded to.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 08:04:33 AM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 08:08:51 AM »
There was a competition for the Rockefeller estate job at Pocantico Hills.  The entire process was a fascinating one, and provided some insights into Rockefeller and Flynn that proved invaluable.

A number of local architects tried to get the job.  JD Rockefeller's aide and chief engineer, John Todd, whittled the list down to two men, Donald Ross and William Flynn with a guarded endorsement, "Neither one is awfully good, for from my experience and inquiries to date, I don't believe there is a competent golf architect in either the United States or England."  

That Todd was one hard man to please    ;)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 08:09:37 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 08:12:30 AM »
There is also the mysterious American architect who was considered for the reconstruction and remodelling of Princes after WW2.  Alison was eventually selected but had to work with Campbell on the course.  I read recently that the new Australian owner (Maltby-Deeley?) disliked blind shots so they had to work between the dunes whereas previously at least two holes crossed them.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jim Nugent

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2006, 08:23:57 AM »
Wayne, how did the Rockefeller course turn out?  Is it still in existence?

wsmorrison

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2006, 09:03:48 AM »
Jim,

The Rockefeller course was a complete redesign on the family estate north of the Tappan Zee.  The process began in 1926 and construction was not completed until 1931 mostly due to the deliberations and long investigative process in determining the architect.  Once Flynn was selected, he did his usual fast routing and efficient construction.  What resulted was a fascinating course with 11 greens and 18 holes and no fairway cuts---its all the same height; though a bit too long these days.  There was one double green with a number of reversible holes.  The course is designed so that there are courses within a course including one that one of the family members created that is 17 par 3s.  It is a fun course to play and on the most beautiful estate in America.  I have to run now, I'll speak more about it later...probably on a new thread.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2006, 07:32:06 PM »
Don M:  I thought I qualified my response pretty well ... I said there were only a handful of PROVEN candidates (who have built one of the best golf courses in the world already) and that most clients looking for the best possible course were more likely to go with one of those architects, than choosing someone unknown who they thought might be capable of greatness.  

There are a lot of architects out there who are capable of something great, if they have the right client and the right setting and the time and energy to devote to it.  But those variables don't come together that often, and the proven architects get way more shots at it than the unknowns do.

I think I would've answered the same way 15 years ago.  Finding someone like Mr. Keiser who wants to take a chance on new talent is not so easy to do -- and he might well have hired Coore & Crenshaw to begin with if he didn't think he'd be accused of "copying" Sand Hills.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 07:36:51 PM by Tom_Doak »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2006, 07:49:26 PM »
Don M:  I thought I qualified my response pretty well ... I said there were only a handful of PROVEN candidates (who have built one of the best golf courses in the world already) and that most clients looking for the best possible course were more likely to go with one of those architects, than choosing someone unknown who they thought might be capable of greatness.  

There are a lot of architects out there who are capable of something great, if they have the right client and the right setting and the time and energy to devote to it.  But those variables don't come together that often, and the proven architects get way more shots at it than the unknowns do.


Tom, over your career thusfar, would you say a client considers pragmatic aspects of a job over design aspects when hiring an architect?  In other words, will an architect have a better chance winning a job if he can coordinate all aspects of the job from site survey through grow-in and complete the job in an efficient and cost-effective manner, or does he stand a better chance of getting a commission by virtue of his unique design talents?  Or is there a balance between the two?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2006, 08:03:08 PM »
James:

Obviously, clients vary.  Some are very budget-conscious, others don't even want to hear about costs for fear it will make them seem cheap.  

If I had to generalize, I'd say that the bigger the budget for the golf course, the more the client thinks about the architect's track record and their comfort level and professionalism in keeping the budget under control.  A client planning a $10 million golf course would not likely hire someone an architect who has built a bunch of $5 million courses.  More of those clients think the lower-priced architect might be lost in such a big project, instead of thinking that the lower-priced architect might produce a better course for less money.  

In fact, in my early years I used to shoot myself in the foot when going after big jobs by telling clients that we could save them money.  At that point, they want to hear about quality, and would not want to admit it even if saving their money was appreciated!

T_MacWood

Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2006, 06:48:42 AM »
There is also the mysterious American architect who was considered for the reconstruction and remodelling of Princes after WW2.  Alison was eventually selected but had to work with Campbell on the course.  I read recently that the new Australian owner (Maltby-Deeley?) disliked blind shots so they had to work between the dunes whereas previously at least two holes crossed them.

Tony
Wouldn't that American had to have been Robt Trent Jones?

Didn't Morrison work with Campbell?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2006, 07:15:31 AM »
SPDB,

there was no such competition between MacKenzie and Ross for Augusta National. Not a single shred of evidence exists. Ross was already involved next door at Augusta CC and never once mentioned anything to do with Augusta National. Nor has ANGC produced any such evidence.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2006, 07:33:16 AM »
Brad is right about ANGC.

Jones knew Ross's work well. East Lake (it's hard to imagine that Jones wasn't involved in Ross's '23 and the '27 revisions at EL and the building of the No. 2 EL course in '27), Highlands CC (Jones's summer course), Augusta CC (Jones's winter course), Athens CC, PII and any number of tournament venues designed by Ross.

Yet there is no evidence that Ross was ever considered for ANGC.

I think from the moment Jones and Roberts conceived ANGC, MacK was the guy. There is some early correspondence that Jones wanted Roberts to meet with MacK in NYC early in the process. It was assumed that MacK was to be the architect for their new course. There was no competition or RFP's.

Bob

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Competing for the prime project
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2006, 08:00:15 AM »
Bob Crosby, there's a great example of confusion on this. I remember reading repeatedly that Ross "threw himself" into the Seminole job to make up for his disappointment at not getting ANGC.

Two major problems with this theory. First, Seminole work preceded ANGC by 3-4 years. Second, Ross actually did have to compete at Seminole with one other architect (unnamed), with Ross winning because of his ingenious drainage scheme for Seminole, whereas the other architect wanted to level the big hill on which now sits a whole group of greens and tees on the NW corner of the property.

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