[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Long par 3's could be the best length equalizer.  The longer hitter should have an advantage, but if designed well, the shorter player can shape a shot to find the pin.  I have been playing a generic Fazio  in a tournament with two long par 3's and a short hitter faired better than the really long player in my group.  And while  watching the Chrysler at Innisbrook, the par 3's did not seem to favor the bombers.  Any opinions on this observation.

[SPDB]

RMD -
Are you playing Hudson National?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

PGA Ryder Cup course in the Nat'l Asst's Champ

[Jimmy Muratt]

I have to disagree with your theory that long par 3's are equalizers.  For example, if you have a 240 yard par 3, a long hitter will be using a 4 or 5 iron while a short hitter will need perhaps a 3 wood.  It will be much easier for the longer hitter to stop the ball on the green and play more aggressively.  The key is that the longer hitter can not be over-aggressive and get greedy, that is when they can get in trouble.

The great equalizer is the opposite, shorter holes.  Short par 3's and short par 4's neutralize some of the longer players advantage.  As we've seen in recent years on the Tour, "Tiger-proofing" courses by adding length only further eliminates more players from contention.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have always believed that length was an advantage on long par 3's, but have seen the opposite play out very well.  There was a qualifier in my thread--designs that encourage shaped shots.  I played with a short hitter who shaped a beautifully sliced wood into a hole yesterday.  I was not able to bend my 3 iron enough to get close.  The long hitter had a straight ball that landed fairly close and took off to the races because the slope favored a left to right approach.  And to sight this week's tour event, the course is accomodating the shorter hitters--both Gay and Goydos played the par 3's well.

[Pete Stankevich]

Robert:
It sounds like the shorter hitter you played with can shape his shots better than you or the other long hitter.  If a design encourages shaped shots, the golfer that can manuever their ball the best has the advantage.  If what you say is true, does that mean the short hitter who can shape their shots has an advantage over a long hitter who can shape their shots?  No chance.  But they may have an advantage over a long hitter who can't work it.
I'll take a long hitting player who can carve a 4 or 5 iron into a tough pin over a short hitter with a fairway wood trying to do the same thing, any day.

[Jim Nugent]

Jimmy, I get your point, but I wonder how many people hit 240 yard 5-irons.  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The shorter the club, the harder it is to shape a shot.  Also, you try to hit mostly straight irons.  Generally, great ball strikers limit the amount of curvature in their irons.  I am not a great ballstriker, but good enough to have qualified for a June classic with 7 three putts.  When in a playing mode, you tend to visualize shots you hit consistently.  A long par 3 will cross up the longer hitter if he needs to work the ball.  Again, we saw this today with Ernie hitting a weak right and KJ being way short.  Of course these could be isolated results, but in this instance, both players spent quite an amount of time trying to figure out the shot selection.  Aso, the real bombers do not hit many middle irons on par 4's any more, much less a long iron.  Long par 3's bring this challenge back into play

[bakerg]

I had the same question as Jim.  Who hits a 5 iron 240 yards? Does Matt Ward even have that juice?

Personally I love long par 3's.   I tend to hit my long irons very well and love the challenge on par 3's to thread them in there.  

[Jimmy Muratt]

A 4 or 5 iron was just an example, and many of the longer pros do hit their 4 irons 240 yards.  

Regardless, someone like Corey Pavin can only hang for so long versus Tiger, Phil, Ernie, etc... if they were to continuosly play 200+ yard par 3's, that's the point.  

I enjoy 1 or 2 long par 3's on a course as well, but I do think that the set of par 3's should challenge a broad spectrum of your iron play.  

[wsmorrison]

Which architect do you think has the best collection of par 3s in general and long par 3s specifically?  I know most think I'm a homer on all things Flynn, but for those that know Flynn courses well--and those that don't, what classic era architect created a better set of par 3s by course and overall portfolio?  Throw in an interesting long par 3 on nearly every course (Flynn planned a 260-yard uphill par 3 in 1926!) and I think he takes the prize.  Ross seemed to have excellent long par 3s as well.

[Jim Nugent]

Regardless, someone like Corey Pavin can only hang for so long versus Tiger, Phil, Ernie, etc... if they were to continuosly play 200+ yard par 3's, that's the point.  

I enjoy 1 or 2 long par 3's on a course as well, but I do think that the set of par 3's should challenge a broad spectrum of your iron play.  

Interesting you bring up Corey and par 3's, because guess who led the PGA tour last year in par 3 performance?  Corey Pavin.

This year he is in third place.  The top ten are:

1.  Donald
2.  Furyk
3.  Pavin
3.  Verplank (tie)
5.  Olazabal
6.  Armour III
7.  Scott
7.  Triplett (tie)
9.  Pernice Jr.
9.  Rose (tie)

Nearly all short hitters.  My theory is that par 3's mostly negate the big advantage longer hitters have.  Whereas on par 4's the bombers could have a 3, 4 or 5 club advantage, and on par 5's even more, on par 3's it's more likely to be one or two clubs, if that.

Doesn't quite prove the original proposition of this thread, but does supply some evidence that backs up Robert.  If we change his proposition to, "par 3's could be the best length equalizer," may be right on the money.  

[Gary Slatter]

In normal play (people who hit 5 irons 180ish) I have found long par threes favor the short hitter who may often be the higher handicap.  Both players usually make 4, short hitter is happy, long hitter isn't.  
Short par threes favor the better golfer, and offer challenge to everyone.

[Pete Stankevich]

We're talking about LONG par 3's here, so we're not talking about shaping short irons, where the amount of loft and subsequent backspin negates some of the sidespin you can potentially create.
We're talking about long irons, hybrids, and fairway woods, right?  As a PGA club professional myself, I can shape a 3 or 4 iron shot with much more consistency than a 3 or 4 wood.  And even if the hole encourages shaped shots, I'd rather hit the shorter club.

[wsmorrison]

Here are some of Flynn's long par 3 yardages at the time of construction, often he designed in elasticity to stretch them over time as needed:

Cascades #15 245y
Concord #9 219y, #12 208y
CC Harrisburg #3 201y (1916)
CC Virginia #17 202y
Doylestown CC #6 210y (1916)
Cleveland Heights #2 205y
Elyria CC #7 204y
Old Course at Homestead #5 225y (redesign)
Huntingdon Valley CC #3 218y, #17 204y
Indian Creek CC #8 208y
Indian Springs #9 235y (redesigned Ross)
Kittansett #11 230y
Lehigh CC #3 212y, #7 221y
Manor CC #17 239y
Manufacturers #11 204y, #13 228y
Merion West #15 227y
Norfolk CC #8 205y
Philadelphia CC #7 206y, #15 234y (uphill)
Plymouth CC (Norristown, PA) #7 235y, #14 209y
Pocono Manor #3 225y (redesigned Ross)
Rolling Green #10 245y (uphill, planned as 260y)
Shinnecock Hills #2 235y slightly uphill
Seaview Pines #8 213y
Washington GCC #14 234y
Woodmont CC #14 224y

[Jim_Kennedy]

Robert,
I don't think there is an advantage. I would bet that if you were to compare the performance of long hitters vs. short hitters you'd find their birdie %'s would decrease at the same rate as the holes increased in length.  

[Ted Kramer]

Here are some of Flynn's long par 3 yardages at the time of construction, often he designed in elasticity to stretch them over time as needed:

Cascades #15 245y
Concord #9 219y, #12 208y
CC Harrisburg #3 201y (1916)
CC Virginia #17 202y
Doylestown CC #6 210y (1916)
Cleveland Heights #2 205y
Elyria CC #7 204y
Old Course at Homestead #5 225y (redesign)
Huntingdon Valley CC #3 218y, #17 204y
Indian Creek CC #8 208y
Indian Springs #9 235y (redesigned Ross)
Kittansett #11 230y
Lehigh CC #3 212y, #7 221y
Manor CC #17 239y
Manufacturers #11 204y, #13 228y
Merion West #15 227y
Norfolk CC #8 205y
Philadelphia CC #7 206y, #15 234y (uphill)
Plymouth CC (Norristown, PA) #7 235y, #14 209y
Pocono Manor #3 225y (redesigned Ross)
Rolling Green #10 245y (uphill, planned as 260y)
Shinnecock Hills #2 235y slightly uphill
Seaview Pines #8 213y
Washington GCC #14 234y
Woodmont CC #14 224y

#10 at RG and #2 at Shinnecock are two of the best long par 3's that I've ever seen/played.

-Ted

[Gerry B]

I  guess we can revisit this thread after the us open at oakmont next year

The 8th hole will play at 280 yds +

Took a walk to the new back tee box a few weeks ago and the green looks like it is in another zip code.

being a medium hitter there is no question that the longer hitter has a big advantage on the longer one shotters

I can only assume that in the old days the great designers certainly intended that a wood would have to be used on the longer par 3's.

Myopia 3rd / PV 5th / CPC 16th  are a few that come to mind

That being said  if technology coupled with more athletic golfers continues at the current pace -my guess is that there will be a number  of 300yd par 3's in the near future

[Ian Andrew]

Some of Walter Travis's par threes were designed to played as drive and pitch holes. The aggressive player had to deal with lots of trouble on the flanks and behind, but a player playing short often had a simple pitch to the pin.

Hard to imagine, but this type of hole suited his game for a match. I agree that shorter hitter can "sometimes" have an advantage on long holes.

That said many of the players listed are very strong iron players.

[Doug Ralston]

5-iron? I would be hitting a wedge to a 240yd par-3.

My second shot, of course, since I don't get even a driver that far, mostly.

My idea of a 'long par-3' is something I must hit a fairway wood to ...... say 170+. 240 yds is a par-4!  

Doug

[Dave Bourgeois]

Wayne,

Being new to GCA I find it quite amazing that Flynn (and other architects) could envision where golf would eventually head with regards to distance.  The list you have kind of blows me away.  Thanks for the list.

As to Robert's original premise, I don't question his observation, but it is counter intuitive.  I guess the shorter hitter may have had to learn to have a more complete game to compete at that level.  The longer hitter has an advantage and that may have negated the need to learn to shape shots etc.

[Bob_Huntley]

How on earth could anyone in their right mind think that long par threes are anything but easier for the long hitters?

Statistically, the preponderence of birdies on holes where a player has used a short iron to the target is well noted.

I can think of a couple of holes here on the Monterey Peninsula where there have been less than a dozen aces on each in the past 70 to 80 years. The shorter holes have been aced at a rate of ten or twenty more times greater.  


Bob

[Gary Slatter]

In keeping the records on holes for club handicapping purposes I've found long par threes are the equalizers.
Long hitters will get more birdies but when it comes time for a scratch player to give a handicap stroke to a short hitter (say his wife!), often it won't be on a long par three where they both may make a bogey.  Long hitters will often end up pin high and this is usually a more difficult chip than one from in front of the green.  Last year we played two long par threes, one at Turnberry and one at Carnoustie, I was pin high and dead, she was right in front and smiling.
I think poorly designed long par threes could be easier for the long hitter, but they don't have to be.
How much easier is the 17th at Cypress Point, on average score basis, for the longer hitter?  

[Bill_McBride]

I  guess we can revisit this thread after the us open at oakmont next year

The 8th hole will play at 280 yds +

Took a walk to the new back tee box a few weeks ago and the green looks like it is in another zip code.

Gerry, how much room is there in front of the green for a shot to land and run on?  As I recall the hole, it's not all carry.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The point of this thread is the potential for par 3's to be length equalizers.  In theory, the longer hitter has an advantage.  However, on these long holes, they do not seem to dominate statistically.  Wayne Morrisson pointed out the genius of Flynn in this regard.  Having played Shinny many times, #2 is one of my all time favorite holes.  The hot 180 carry drive has as good of a chance of getting close as the ripped 230 3 iron.  In addition, balls carrying pin high have the potential to encounter trouble of the 2 stroke variety, while short is potentially very recoverable.  A tie in to this thread, a great future of design is a very long redan.  I love redans because they contain quite a few shotmaking options that will achieve similar results. Though not redans, Pete Dye has created a couple of brilliant long par 3's at Dye Fore that very much equalize the long and short hitters oppotunity for birdie.

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