WORST COURSES on the PGA Tour

« **on:** October 28, 2006, 10:29:50 AM »

On the Elk thread someone said we could make a compilation of the worst 10. I'll start by defining criteria and taking nominations.

* Course must have been used for at least one PGA Tour round in the past five years - 2002 to 2006.
* We are discussing architectural merit and not conditions or suitability for spectating.
* Course need not be a TPC to qualify.

I'll throw out Disney's MAGNOLIA and the TPC in Dallas where they play the Byron Nelson.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2006, 11:31:44 AM »

I count at least 10 and maybe more. The problem is some of the tournaments are very popular from the fan and cities perspective.

Start with,
Waialae in Hawaii

Poppy Hills during the AT&T

Indian Wells, Bermuda Dunes during the Bob Hope are jokes

English Turn in New Orleans

Brown Deer

Then the TPC courses,
TPC Summerlin
TPC The Canyon
TPC Southwind
TPC Four Seasons
TPC River Highlands
TPC Avenel

The only 2 that are well liked are
TPC Sawgrass - being rebuilt
TPC Boston - also being rebuilt

Is it ironic that the only 2 that are well liked are being rebuilt?

« **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2006, 11:36:34 AM »

I haven't watched the tournament in a couple years, but I always thought the TPC at Sugarloaf looked like a fun place to play. That might be one of the better TPC layouts in addition to Sawgrass.

How about Warwick Hills?

« **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2006, 11:41:00 AM »

TPC River Highlands is better than you are giving it credit for.

« **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2006, 11:43:17 AM »

Without question...Atunyote at Turning Stone CASINO.

Vapid. 0/2 on the Doak scale. The greens are three scoops of unflavored yogurt.

« **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2006, 11:44:16 AM »

Quote from: Andy Troeger on October 28, 2006, 11:36:34 AM

I haven't watched the tournament in a couple years, but I always thought the TPC at Sugarloaf looked like a fun place to play. That might be one of the better TPC layouts in addition to Sawgrass.

How about Warwick Hills?

I have played Sugarloaf...it is a fun golf course.....Norman did a fine job there

« **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2006, 12:17:05 PM »

Hard to get much worse than Avenal, but I haven't played them all.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:00:16 PM »

Wasn't Avenal the one they threw in so they wouldn't have to cancel the BC Open after the floods?

Doug

« **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:30:41 PM »

Quote from: Doug Ralston on October 28, 2006, 01:00:16 PM

Wasn't Avenal the one they threw in so they wouldn't have to cancel the BC Open after the floods?

Doug

If we're talking about the same TPC Avenel, then it's hosted the Kemper Open/FBR/Booz Allen Classic since 1987 (except last year when Rory and Ben made Congressional a notable host)

« **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:32:39 PM »

Avenal just announced an $18 million renovation.

« **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:41:05 PM »

I have never played Waialae and just watched it on the tube. It is reported to have been designed by Seth Raynor. Has the course been changed since his design significantly? Has the equipment made the course obsolete for the pros?

Paul

« **Reply #11 on:** October 28, 2006, 02:11:16 PM »

Quote from: Tim Copeland on October 28, 2006, 11:44:16 AM

Quote from: Andy Troeger on October 28, 2006, 11:36:34 AM
I haven't watched the tournament in a couple years, but I always thought the TPC at Sugarloaf looked like a fun place to play. That might be one of the better TPC layouts in addition to Sawgrass.

How about Warwick Hills?

I have played Sugarloaf...it is a fun golf course.....Norman did a fine job there

TPC River Highlandshas a nice finish to it, although 18 doesn't seem to have the teeth in it it once had with the ball distance issue.

TPC Sugarloaf is nice enough, but I do miss the days of the tournament being held at Atlanta Country Club. A fine old course (by today's PGA Tour standards) that held up well on challenge and handling spectators.

Ken

« **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2006, 02:29:39 PM »

Ken:

I know that the finish at TPC River Highlands has some drama but there are some issues.

The drivable 15th is now a three wood for many players, but not a bad hole. I think # 16 is a very poor hole. The green used to be approached from the west, now the tee is to the north. The green which used to slope back to front now tilts from left to right. I personally never liked # 17 and with the distances of today the hole is long iron, eight iron. Eighteen has become driver lob wedge for the longer players.

Great viewing course but golf wise it is a four.

« **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2006, 02:41:42 PM »

Doug
I think that was moved to Atunyote at Turningstone.

« **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2006, 05:52:18 PM »

Quote from: michael j fay on October 28, 2006, 02:29:39 PM

Ken:

I know that the finish at TPC River Highlands has some drama but there are some issues.

The drivable 15th is now a three wood for many players, but not a bad hole. I think # 16 is a very poor hole. The green used to be approached from the west, now the tee is to the north. The green which used to slope back to front now tilts from left to right. I personally never liked # 17 and with the distances of today the hole is long iron, eight iron. Eighteen has become driver lob wedge for the longer players.

Great viewing course but golf wise it is a four.

Michael,

Despite #15 and #17 suffering from the distances the ball currently flies, I enjoy the options both pose to the Tour players coming down the stretch. #16 is a tough target to hit it seems but the course renovation did remove the criss-cross tee shots on #16 and #17.

It's always difficult to truly get a feel for a course by walking it. I've attended the GHO but never played Cromwell. I did get a much better appreciation for Atlanta Country Club playing the course after attending the BellSouth Classic a few times.

Ken

« **Reply #15 on:** October 28, 2006, 05:58:23 PM »

Paul Carey: what is involved in an $18million renovation? that's a lot of money (I think so anyway).

« **Reply #16 on:** October 28, 2006, 06:08:19 PM »

Gary, apparently you have never seen TPC Avenel. $18 million might not be enough.

The holes at TPC Sugarloaf are pretty solid, but walking it requires very long hikes between greens and tees; the PGA Tour loopers call it a caddie killer.

« **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2006, 12:16:37 AM »

Gary,

I am not sure. it may be for some clubhouse and non golf course work as well. I will try to find out and post. I don't want to piss off my friends that are members but Brad is pretty close to right.

Paul

« **Reply #18 on:** October 29, 2006, 12:25:15 AM »

How about TPC Boston? I've heard the players can't stand it. I'm not a big fan of the courses used for the late Mr. Nelson 's tournament either.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 29, 2006, 03:08:21 AM »

How about more explanations about what makes these courses so bad?

Also, any thoughts on what if anything could be done to improve them?

« **Reply #20 on:** October 29, 2006, 08:53:18 AM »

Paul, don't worry abut annoying your friends at TPC Avenel any more than they probably already are about being there in the first place.

Jim Nugent rightly asks what makes the place so bad? Poorly manufactured holes -- the only decent looking holes are the ones by the creek (9-12) where they hardly moved anything. Walking up to the 13th fairway and all of those condos and apartments and houses is like taking an exit ramp onto the Long Island Expressway and looking up at the sprawl of homes comprising Douglaston looming over you. The rest of the holes on the back nine (14-18) were widly mounded and sculpted, designed for spectators to maximize views but not for players to maximize enjoyment of the shots.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 29, 2006, 10:24:18 AM »

Quote from: Joel_Stewart on October 28, 2006, 11:31:44 AM

I count at least 10 and maybe more. The problem is some of the tournaments are very popular from the fan and cities perspective.

Start with,
Waialae in Hawaii

Poppy Hills during the AT&T

Indian Wells, Bermuda Dunes during the Bob Hope are jokes

English Turn in New Orleans

Brown Deer

Then the TPC courses,
TPC Summerlin
TPC The Canyon
TPC Southwind
TPC Four Seasons
TPC River Highlands
TPC Avenel

The only 2 that are well liked are
TPC Sawgrass - being rebuilt
TPC Boston - also being rebuilt

Is it ironic that the only 2 that are well liked are being rebuilt?

Actually most of the courses that the players like on tour are ones most people on here dont like. The shorter, tight, tree lined courses. The course they are playing this weekend, sawgrass, westchester, harbour town..... Even the longer hitters prefer these courses which is ironic

« **Reply #22 on:** October 29, 2006, 12:31:36 PM »

R.I.P., TPC Heron Bay

--Anyone who can calculate the real estate value of the property, please make an offer.

« **Reply #23 on:** October 29, 2006, 12:54:59 PM »

I second that Heron Bay might well be the worst course ever to host a tour event... Just plain awful.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2006, 12:00:04 AM »

English Turn is really quite fun. The pros eat it alive, but there is usually alot of wind there, and there are definitely preferred/strategic playing angles, as many of the greens are set at angles to the line of play. Plenty long for all but tour-length players, and the greens have some nice contours.

Come down to NOLA and try it out! We need folks to come here and spend their hard-earned cash!

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