[cary lichtenstein]

I'm thinking that maybe all this excitement about Old McDonald will be more difficult to pull off correctly than we all think.

Maybe Keiser should have just said to Doak, do your thing but use as an inspiration McDonald and Raynor.

Rarely when you try to copy something does it come out as good as the original.

Here you have a unique piece of ground and Doak usually lets the routing drive the design.

Designing by group never works, our best designs in our studio came from our most talented artists, and we allowed them freedom to do their thing.

It may be that Keiser is putting handcuffs on Doak and not realizing it?

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

We are meeting next week to discuss just those topics.  But as of now, if I was handcuffed, do you think I could type this well?

[Tom Dunne]

Cary:

"Keiser".

[Gary Slatter]

Who said "a camel is a horse designed by a committee"?
Good morning Tom.

[Josh Smith]

Cary,

 Design by a group never works??

 I think GCA history has proved it does work to get the very best out of a site. PV as the only example needed.  

 My guess is the Old Mac team will not be "copying" something as much as they will look for inspiration from CB's portfolio of great designs.  I have complete faith in Keiser and the above mentioned crew.  

[Joe Hancock]

Another thread speculating the success and methodology of the creators of one of the most successful golf models this country has ever seen....

Joe

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary:

"Keiser".

Corrected, thank u

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

You can type very well with handicuffs, run a bull dozer, I think not, be a your creative best...an awful big challenge, remember Houdini.

Cary

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

It is always a challenge to be at one's creative best.  You have to really want to keep working at it and not be satisfied with what you've accomplished to date.

Our cat's name was Houdini, but he lives with my ex-wife now.

[Bill_McBride]

MacDonald didn't precisely replicate the holes in the UK that inspired NGLA, he went around the site and found the land that best enabled him to create holes that revealed the strategic intent and playability of those UK models.  It's a model, not a precise template.  There is some good terrain on that Bandon site, and modern, subtle earthmoving can handle the rest.  I for one can't wait to see the outcome!

The water views at NGLA are inspirational as well, and the Pacific Ocean will certainly provide similar vistas.  

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

"Our cat's name was Houdini, but he lives with my ex-wife now"

I thought that was very funny


Cary,

How is this handcuffs when they have all the options for templates and the possibility (like Raynor did) of dropping in an original when a template doesn't fit. The so caled templates are not entire holes but concepts or ideas borrowed to fit the right spot.

I think the advisors are there for ideas, not as designers. I think Pine Valley worked out OK, with Crump making the final call on everything. Why not a modern version with Doak?
Isn't it this way with his own staff?

Where are the handcuffs, I see this as a wondeful opportunity to push your talent. I bet Tom is more excited for this opportunity to see if he's up to the challenge.

My 3 cents.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom,

"Our cat's name was Houdini, but he lives with my ex-wife now"

I thought that was very funny


Cary,

How is this handcuffs when they have all the options for templates and the possibility (like Raynor did) of dropping in an original when a template doesn't fit. The so caled templates are not entire holes but concepts or ideas borrowed to fit the right spot.

I think the advisors are there for ideas, not as designers. I think Pine Valley worked out OK, with Crump making the final call on everything. Why not a modern version with Doak?
Isn't it this way with his own staff?

Where are the handcuffs, I see this as a wondeful opportunity to push your talent. I bet Tom is more excited for this opportunity to see if he's up to the challenge.

My 3 cents.

Easier said than done

[Tom_Doak]

OF COURSE it's easier said than done, otherwise everybody could do it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

I had no idea you were divorced..are you seeing anybody.

[Tim Bert]

John K - Are you coming on to Tom?

[Joe Hancock]

OF COURSE it's easier said than done, otherwise everybody could do it.

Tom,

You're being very funny this morning, even if it may be unintentional!

That last line reminds me of the line in Monty Python's "The Holy Grail", when God appears in a cloud and directs King Arthur to seek the Holy Grail. King Arthur's response was "Good idea, O Lord". God's response: "OF COURSE it's a good idea!"

 

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

John K - Are you coming on to Tom?

I'm not the one with the handcuffs...I bet he would look good in some Tina Fey smart girl glasses..

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I've been happily remarried for four years.

[Tim Bert]

John:

I've been happily remarried for four years.

Sorry John - we all know you were just looking for access anyway.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

I've been happily remarried for four years.

All the good ones are either married or golf course architects...or both.

[cary lichtenstein]

John K - Are you coming on to Tom?

I'm not the one with the handcuffs...I bet he would look good in some Tina Fey smart girl glasses..

John: R u flirting with Tom? Maybe you should get some fresh air away from those asphalt fumes

[Jim Nugent]

Cary, I doubt Doak would take the job if he felt handcuffed.  He is not exactly desperate for work.  I also bet he has final say in the design, with the possible exception of Keiser (and maybe even there).  Just my guess, but I expect this course to turn out more completely as Tom sees it than, e.g., Sebonack did.      

[cary lichtenstein]

Jim:

Everyone is talking for granted that this course will turn out brilliant. I am just pointing out that this is a much more difficult undertaking than it sounds, that too many cooks spoil the broth and suggesting to Keiser give Tom Doak his head and let him have the freedom he needs.

It is tougher to put 18 square pegs neatly into any piece of land, make it walkable, etc

Cary

[Joe Hancock]

Jim:

Everyone is talking for granted that this course will turn out brilliant. I am just pointing out that this is a much more difficult undertaking than it sounds, that too many cooks spoil the broth and suggesting to Keiser give Tom Doak his head and let him have the freedom he needs.

It is tougher to put 18 square pegs neatly into any piece of land, make it walkable, etc

Cary

Cary,

That is what I don't understand about all this advice and speculation. We don't really know what has been said between TD and MK, do we? Do we know what the management of this project will look like? Do you know for sure whether TD or MK is calling all the shots? Or is it a combo?.....We don't know.

My point is that these players have as proven a track record as any in the business. Is it no wonder that everyone is taking success for granted?

To use another cliche, along with the "spoiled broth" and "square peg".......damn, I forgot what I was going to type....

Joe

[Jim_Kennedy]

cary,
I've only played a few courses by CBMac/SR/CB but in thinking back on them I can't remember anyplace where a *square peg has been forced into a round hole.

Personally, I don't see any major conflicts. An owner is forming a team that includes a designer, historian, critic, shaper, and others who possess more knowledge of the subject than any other group of humans. They've already had their egos stroked by being chosen for this task and they all know that their future responsibility is to the owner, the architecture, the spirit of the endeavor and the golfing public.
This appears, at least to me, to be a group of professionals that will be more interested in trying to find the highest common denominator, not bicker their way to the lowest.





*I'll stand corrected by those with more experience.

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