[John Kirk]

I just saw a new Golfweek list for the 50 best new courses.  The list seems to cover most courses opened in 2004 and 2005.  I don't get the magazine until tomorrow or so.

1.  Bandon Trails
2.  Old Sandwich
7.  Pronghorn - Nicklaus
9.  Stone Eagle
22.  Tumble Creek

Boston Golf Club was up there around 4 or 5.  Somebody will post the list soon.

On a personal note, I'm kind of bummed about Stone Eagle, as I thoght it would finish a little higher.  I'm concerned a few too many raters saw the course after already playing 18 holes on a 110 degree day.  The perceived lack of walkability is also probably a factor.

[Daryl David]

John,
I will be interested to see the other courses that finished higher than Stone Eagle.  I too am a bit puzzled by that low a ranking.  Pronghorn higher ranked?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Pronghorn is a very good golf course.

[Joe Hancock]

I ran a couple of the responses through the Google translator. It returned me with "How did a Nicklaus course finish higher than a Doak course?"

I trust Don......

Joe

Of course, here's how Don's post translated: "Prongho'n be a real baaaad golf course."  

[Mike Erdmann]

Of the five courses John listed, I've played Bandon Trails, Pronghorn and Tumble Creek.  Obviously I can't make a direct comparison between Stone Eagle and Pronghorn, but Pronghorn is a very good golf course and it's fairly high place on the list doesn't surprise me.

[cary lichtenstein]

I've played 3 of the 5 courses listed:

Pronghorn
Stone Eagle
Bandon Trails

All are very good.

[John Kirk]

Sorry I don't have the complete list yet.  I have also heard that Pronghorn is very good.  Like Dismal River and Sebonack, I've also heard that it is a difficult course.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Pronghorn is a very solid layout -- in regards to the "difficulty" aspect -- it pays to follow what Clint Eastwood famously said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

[Adam Clayman]

How does the tee someone chooses effect the architecture?

It doesn't. It only effects how someone personally relates how they played to how they evaluate golf courses.

The appropriate teeing ground qualifier is not honest. It's a cop out for a lack of intelligence behind the design. While simutaneously patting oneself on the back.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Allow me to more fully explain what different tee boxes can in regards to the design elements offered at a given layout.

If people play the back tees the intensity of the design will clearly increase and the probability of success can often be thrwarted completely. As a result, those attempting to take in the full measure of what the course provides from the maximum perspective may feel overwhelmed and less than thrilled -- ergo, my comments on Pronghorn and other courses of that type. On the flip side, when played at a more appropriate length the elements of the design will be more fully included in the overall experience.

The tees played do have a major role on the nature of the architecture and how it impacts the player when playing. Quality architecture attempts to provide that kind of outcome for the greatest number of players -- but at the end of the day it's up to the player to make the kind of determination on what their game can handle -- hence the Eastwood line. That's quite honest and straightforward. Otherwise, why have any different tees boxes at all? That would be utterly silly.

I'm sorry it's difficult for you to understand that -- maybe it's the fog you surround yourself in that keeps you from seeing clearly.

[A.G._Crockett]

How does the tee someone chooses effect the architecture?

It doesn't. It only effects how someone personally relates how they played to how they evaluate golf courses.

The appropriate teeing ground qualifier is not honest. It's a cop out for a lack of intelligence behind the design. While simutaneously patting oneself on the back.

 

Adam C.,
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.  If two golfers play different tee boxes, and by so doing end up playing a similar golf course, how is that a lack of intelligence in the design?  Wouldn't that be a way for the intensity of the design to be experienced by both?  Why are different sets of tees and intelligent selection by the players inherently bad?

[Garland Bayley]

the list is at
http://www.golfweek.com/destinations/features/287356369337906.php

[Adam Clayman]

Don't have time to fully answer now, But in the recent past when comments are focused on the teeing grounds played, I've found that it should have zero bearing on any serious architectural analysis.

 The testosterone induced American male, who chooses to play the wrong tees, ruins everyone day, whose around him.

It has no bearing on the architecture.

If the architecture is not quality(having little intellegence behind it), whatever tee is played is irrelavant.

[John Kavanaugh]

the list is at
http://www.golfweek.com/destinations/features/287356369337906.php

I'm thinking the numbers 1, 17 and 18 are probably happy...I'm sorry for the rest and can only tell you that if you have any questions give me a private email and I can problably explain why you feel shorted today.

The Alotian knows what they are doing...a model that should be followed in the future.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How does the tee someone chooses effect the architecture?
Adam,

You've got to be kidding.

It's not the tee you choose fitting the architecture, it's the golfer's ability that will fit or disconnect with the architecture based upon what tee he chooses.

Sebonack, played from the back tees by an 18 handicap doesn't work.  He'll never interface his game with the architecture.

The same can be said of Sand Hills or any other golf course.


It doesn't. It only effects how someone personally relates how they played to how they evaluate golf courses.

That's not true.
A fairway bunker 280 yards from the back tee will never be a factor on the drive for an 18 handicap whose best drive is 210.

The architectural features are meant to interface with golfers of different abilities playing from DIFFERENT tees, not the same tees.

The appropriate teeing ground qualifier is not honest. It's a cop out for a lack of intelligence behind the design. While simutaneously patting oneself on the back.

You're not looking at the issue correctly.

Shinnecock, Seminole, Pine Valley, Winged Foot, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Sebonack and others have great architecture, but, a woman golfer, or a senior or a junior or an 18 handicap will never interface with that architecture until they reach the green area if they play from tees other than the ones commensurate with their ability.  The tees that the architect intended them to play from in order to maximize the process of interfacing.

[Garland Bayley]

But Patrick, you forget the 18 handicapper that regularly drives it 310.

If I choose the tee by handicap, it often takes appropriate bunkers out of play.

E.g., when I played with Mike Erdmann, a single digit handicapper, once I got my driver going on the back nine, we were about equal in length even though I have been over 20 in handicap.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Sorry, I'm agreeing with Adam.  A course should provide interesting shots and options for every player from anywhere he happens to wind up on any hole.  This should not depend on the player's choice of tees nor on his length off the tee.

To quote MacKenzie:  "The course should be so arranged that the long handicap player or even the absolute beginner should be able to enjoy his round in spite of the fact that he is piling up a big score."

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

John I would not be disappointed with Stone Eagle at 9. I think any course in the top 10 should be tickled pink.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

While I do agree that a quality course should provide "interesting" shots / options (your words) from any tee box played -- the broader and more deeper point is which tee box provides the richer menu of shots and design merits when weighed against the player's ability level.

[John Kirk]

John I would not be disappointed with Stone Eagle at 9. I think any course in the top 10 should be tickled pink.

What the internet list doesn't show is the cumulative score for each course.  Bandon Trails is at 7.85, well above the 2nd place course and good enough for about 13th on the overall top 100 modern list.  Stone Eagle is at 6.60, which puts it just out of the top 100.  The publicity of a top 100 ranking is worth a lot to a young club attracting members.  We'll see how Golf Digest likes it in their best new course rankings in January.

Although I have some pride and ego in having the course do well, there's also a part of me that doesn't care, since I enjoy the golf course and the beautiful scenery very much.

It's interesting to note that Pronghorn - Nicklaus and Atunyote are listed in both this year's and last year's "best new" lists.

[John Kirk]

John:

Pronghorn is a very solid layout -- in regards to the "difficulty" aspect -- it pays to follow what Clint Eastwood famously said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

So which tees did you play Pronghorn from?

I like playing a course from about 6500-7000 yards.  Most modern courses at 6000-6500 yards either take driver out of my hands, or put wedge into them too often.  I like to hit a variety of different shots and clubs during a round.  A course can be too hard from every tee box, if it's dseigned that way.

The Member's Club At Aldarra has a course rating from the white tees (about 6200 yards) of 70.4/144.  That's just a really hard course, no matter what tees you play from.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: I haven't played it but I was wondering what you thought about the Upper Course at Whisper Rock - I know its Fazio and there are many who reject his work offhand, but I was kind of surprised that it wasn't rated higher.

[Sean Leary]

John:

Pronghorn is a very solid layout -- in regards to the "difficulty" aspect -- it pays to follow what Clint Eastwood famously said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

So which tees did you play Pronghorn from?

I like playing a course from about 6500-7000 yards.  Most modern courses at 6000-6500 yards either take driver out of my hands, or put wedge into them too often.  I like to hit a variety of different shots and clubs during a round.  A course can be too hard from every tee box, if it's dseigned that way.

The Member's Club At Aldarra has a course rating from the white tees (about 6200 yards) of 70.4/144.  That's just a really hard course, no matter what tees you play from.

John,

That slope is way too high from those tees (from all the tees except the back I believe).  We played too far back that day we played.  You need to come back and play the tees we normally play. It is way too hard for you and I back there, but our friend likes to play it back as he is freakshow long.

[John Kirk]

Sean,

I was just using Aldarra as an example of a course with a very high slope from the white tees, to make the point that some courses are just plain hard, no matter where you play them from.

I agree the slope rating is probably too high from the whites.  Aldarra is very tough from the blacks, with a 3-4 very long carries off the tee, and a couple of backbreaker par 3s.  From the blues I'm sure it's very manageable.

We shouldn't let freakshow bully us into playing the long tees every time.

[Jim Nugent]

The full list...

 1. Bandon Trails
Bandon, Ore.
Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw, 2005

2. Old Sandwich Golf Club
Plymouth, Mass.
Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw, 2004

3. Trump National Golf Club
Bedminster, N.J.
Tom Fazio, 2004

4. Lakota Canyon Ranch Golf Club
New Castle, Colo.
Jim Engh, 2005

5. Boston Golf Club
Hingham, Mass.
Gil Hanse, 2005

6. Forest Creek Golf Club – North Course
Southern Pines, N.C.
Tom Fazio, 2005

7. Pronghorn Club – Nicklaus Course
Bend, Ore.
Jack Nicklaus, 2004

8. May River Course at Palmetto Bluff
Bluffton, S.C.
Jack Nicklaus, 2004

9. Stone Eagle Golf Club
Palm Desert, Calif.
Tom Doak, 2005

10. The Territory
Duncan, Okla.
Randy Heckenkemper, 2005

11. Whisper Rock Golf Club – Upper Course
Scottsdale, Ariz.
Tom Fazio, 2005

12. Currahee Club
Toccoa, Ga.
Jim Fazio, 2004

13. The Snead
White Sulphur Springs, W. Va.
Tom Fazio, 2004

14. 3 Creek Ranch
Jackson, Wyo.
Rees Jones, 2005

15. Members Club at Grande Dunes
Myrtle Beach, S.C.
Nick Price & Craig Schreiner, 2005

16. The Blessing
Johnson, Ark.
Robert Trent Jones Jr., 2004

17. Morgan Creek Golf & Country Club
Roseville, Calif.
Kyle Phillips, 2004

18. Greywalls Golf Course
Marquette, Mich.
Mike Devries, 2005

19. Shelter Harbor Golf Club
Westerly, R.I.
Dana Fry & Michael Hurdzan, 2005

20. Three Crowns Golf Club
Casper, Wyo.
Robert Trent Jones Jr., 2005

21. Pradera
Parker, Colo.
Jim Engh, 2005

22. Tumble Creek
Roslyn, Wash.
Tom Doak, 2005

23. Cliffs at Walnut Cove
Arden, N.C.
Jack Nicklaus, 2004

24. Desert Mountain – Outlaw
Scottsdale, Ariz.
Jack Nicklaus, 2004

25. Pine Canyon Club
Flagstaff, Ariz.
Jay Morrish, 2004

26. Tuscany Reserve Golf Club
Naples, Fla.
Pete Dye & Greg Norman, 2004

27. Lake Winnipesaukee Golf Club
New Durham, N.H.
Clive Clark, 2004

28. Hideaway Golf Club – Clark Course
LaQuinta, Calif.
Clive Clark, 2004

29. The River Club
Suwanee, Ga.
Greg Norman, 2005

30. Big Fish Golf Course
Hayward, Wis.
Pete Dye & Tim Liddy, 2004

31. The Gallery – South Course
Marana, Ariz.
John Fought, 2004

32. Lake of Isles – South Course
North Stonington, Conn.
Rees Jones, 2005

33. TPC at Craig Ranch
McKinney, Texas
Tom Weiskopf, 2004

34. Wilderness at Fortune Bay
Tower, Minn.
Jeff Brauer, 2004

35. Canyata
Marshall, Ill.
Mike Benkusky, 2005

36. Lake of Isles – North Course
North Stonington, Conn.
Rees Jones, 2005

37. Atunyote Golf Club
Verona, N.Y.
Tom Fazio, 2004

38. Old Greenwood
Truckee, Calif.
Jack Nicklaus, 2004

39. Southern Hills Plantation Club
Brooksville, Fla.
Pete Dye, 2005

40. Bully Pulpit
Medora, N.D.
Michael Hurdzan, 2004

41. Tuhaye
Tuhaye, Utah
Mark O'Meara, 2005

42. Trump National Golf Club
Rancho Palos Verdes, Calif.
Pete Dye & Donald J. Trump, 2005

43. Escena Golf Club
Palm Springs, Calif.
Jack Nicklaus, 2005

44. Mattaponi Springs Golf Curse
Ruther Glen, Va.
Bob Lohmann, 2004

45. Eagle Creek Golf Club
Orlando, Fla.
Ron Garl, 2004

46. Neshanic Valley
Neshanic Station, N.J.
Michael Hurdzan, 2004

47. The Patriot Golf Course at Grand Harbor
Ninety Six, S.C.
Davis Love III, 2004

48. Bayside Golf Club
Fenwick Island, Del.
Jack Nicklaus & Rick Jacobson, 2005

49. Oxford Greens Golf Club
Oxford, Conn.
Mark Mungeam, 2005

50. Suncadia – Prospector Golf Course
Roslyn, Wash.
Arnold Palmer, 2005

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