[bill_k]

I had the opportunity to play Wanumetonomy recently...and came away impressed by the property, which has some magnificant views to rival anything I have seen in New England.  While the engineered look and raised, squarish fillpads are unmistakenly in the Raynor style- I was surprised to find very few template holes. There is a Short, Eden, Maiden...but hardly anything else that I could identify. I have played most of his better-known works such as Chicago, Shoreacres, Camargo, and YH...but Wanumetonomy felt completely different without the replica holes. A good golf course, to be sure-but it felt kinda wierd playing a Raynor course without a Redan, Biarritz (well, maybe you could call #17 a Biarritz...but without the bunking or swale-reminds me of the one at Dedham), Double Plateau, Punchbowl...etc.
My question is-is Wanumetonomy an unusual exception to the Raynor portfolio? Are there others out there that I just have not gotten around to seeing? Was there any particular reason the architect avoided the template holes on this site?
Finally, there cannot be many clubs in America in more dire need of a tree removal program. The overplanting spoils what should be breathtaking vistas on almost all of the downhill holes and completely ruins what could be one of the best examples of a "skyline" green at #3. The trees encroach so much on the Eden hole that the right-side bunker is almost entirely obscured from the tee. While the trees never really come into play-they do negate the open, almost links-like feel that the lower lying holes must have originally possessed.
Any thoughts?

[Noel Freeman]

I played a great Raynor-less template course except that it is not Raynor.. Lawsonia feels Raynor less the templates but obviously is Langford and Moreau.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Bill

You beat Noel and I to the punch.  On a last minute surge of energy in a full scheduled trip we went to Lawsonia on Monday afternoon.

WOW!!! - I absolutely felt at home there.  Langford must have known and been inspired by Raynor's work. Your title to this thread is exactly the wording I used to Noel when we were playing.

[Brad Swanson]

Geoffrey,
   I'm glad you decided to fit Lawsonia into your visit to Wisconsin.  I was fairly certain you would be glad you did so.  I've never played a Raynor design, but the features on the ground at Lawsonia Links really remind me what I've seen of Raynor in photos and the quality of the layout stands tall on its own merits.

Cheers,
Brad

[Geoffrey Childs]

Brad

It was a very last minute thing and we did not have time to call anyone.  I had not been sleeping well and was tired but Noel (he's young like you) convinced me that we should make the drive from Kohler.  We played at 2:30 and it exceeded my expectations. Folks who can play there regularly are lucky indeed!

[bill_k]

I guess my question is...are there many courses designed by Seth Raynor where he employed very few if any template holes? I was under the impression that his portfolio never strayed from the template concept-but after having played Wanumetonomy, I was reminded of my visit to Blowing Rock CC in NC (formerly the Green Park Inn).
Being a native North Carolinian, I was surprised to learn that Raynor was credited with two courses in NC. Since the nine holer at Statesville is long gone, I made arrangements to ride around with the Supt. at Blowing Rock just to look around. I did not find much...except for what I'm pretty certain is an Eden hole lying fallow across the road. I was fairly disappointed not to find more (except a few raised, squarish fillpads in the active routing)...but it makes a little more sense if, for whatever reason (topography, time...etc) , that Raynor might not always have stuck to his template formula-but nevertheless employed his distinctive style.

[BCrosby]

Bill K -

Raynor is credited with designing one of the 18's at Augusta CC. The Raynor course is NLE since the mid 1930's. (It would have been located on the other side of the par 3 course at ANGC. It is now private residences.) I have seen pictures of it and there is also a painted plan of the course reproduced in some advertising materials from the 1920's.

I was surprised that neither the photos (which are sketchy) or the plan seems to show any of the classic Raynor holes. It may have been that they were there but weren't drawn correctly. But it is a bit of a mystery.

Bob

 

[RJ_Daley]

Bill, I haven't played nearly enough Raynor to comment intelligently.  I have played a few.  But, I did play Wauna...Wono...Wuanu...Wanumetonomy ( I always have a devil of a time spelling it   ) with one George Bahto and Atnhony Pioppi.  BTW, one of the highlights of my golf experiences...

Anyway, with George at our side, I came to see that those template features were there - just lost or not properly saved over the years of tinkering both in remodels, and maturing and planting of trees, etc.  With George and Anthony Pioppi, It was sort of a golf round and archeology expedition, all in one.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bill,

George Bahto refers to Wanumetonomy (which I think means Windy Hill) in the dialect of an Indian tribe that lived in that area) as Raynor Lite. Raynor was down the road in Newport building the 9-hole Ocean Links when he was hired to also do Wanumetonomy. I'm not sure of the exact details but T. Suffern Tailer who was the man behind Ocean Links, had a hand in creating Wanumetonomy. He may have hired Raynor to help the new club out. It is kind of the opposite of Yale and Hotchkiss. Raynor was working at the 18-hole Yale course when Yale people brought him up to Hotchkiss to put in a course.

The first hole, originally 10, is a very tame version of an Alps. How much else has been changed over the years I do not know, but Wanumetonomy may be the only Raynor that never had a Redan.

Speaking of Ocean Links, do you know I have a book out on 9-hole golf courses that features two, yes two, chapters on Ocean Links? Available now at finer book stores near you.

RJ,

That was one of the highlights of your golfing career? Man, you have got to get out more often.

BCrosby,

Most of Raynor's drawings do not show the specific holes. You can pick out the par-3s by looking at the yardages, but after that it is just a guess. By the way, on the original Yale drawing the current Eden and Short locations have been reversed.

Tony

[bill_k]

Tony,
Pretty neat how all of Raynor's work was interconnected-that is, most of his commissions came about either directly or indirectly through previous or concurrent jobs. Tailer (Ocean Links-Wanumetonemy) Yale-Hotchkiss, Yeamans Hall-CC of Charleston-City Muni, even Statesville -Blowing Rock. All of which eventually lead back to CBM and his social connections. There was even a 9 holer on land now occupied by Dunes West CC in Mt. Pleasant, SC that was built sometime in the 20's with a pretty sketchy past-all I know is that it was originally a private estate course (starting to sound interesting?) built by a guy who had some connection to the development of YH- on the site of an old plantation. I used to have an old drawing. Sounds farfetched, I know...but no one really suspected he had any involvement at the muni for many years. Anyway, it is interesting how his work always seemed to come in bunches in various locations.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill K,

Westhampton has a few template holes.

A redan, a short, a punchbowl and a pseudo Biarritz, but mostly, the golf course follows the terrain.

It's an underrated golf course, swept by wind.

It's the kind of course you could play every day and never tire of.

It's challenging, yet fun.

[bill_k]

Pat,

Was Westhampton his first solo design?-As such, one might expect it to be full of template holes...I'll have to try and see it sometime.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill K,

I believe it was.

Interestingly enough, I would have thought that his template holes would have been more likely to populate his early designs, but, with a fairly short career, perhaps he never had time to move away from template holes, if that was his desire.

Perhaps he believed in their worth, their enduring values.

They've held up for close to a century, so maybe those guys understood and appreciated the concept of "defined strategies" and their connection with enduring values.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
While Quogue Field Club on LI does have a Short and a bunkerless Redan, the rest of the holes are somewhat like Westhampton, which Pat mentions. They aren't templates per-say, but both palces have a familiarity to them.

Both are absolutely charming.

Build one Bill! Build one!

[T_MacWood]

Is it certain Raynor designed Westhampton?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it certain Raynor designed Westhampton?

Tom MacWood,

I don't think anyone has doubted that, nor have I heard rumors to the contrary.

I know some work was done to the golf course over time  by various individuals, but, I've never heard or read anything that suggests Raynor didn't design Westhampton.

The "Short", "Redan", "Biarritz" and other holes and features bear a great similarity to work attributed to him.

Do you have information to the contrary ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
I should have mentioned it my first post I recently discovered an old article from 1915 that said that Herbert Barker designed it and Raynor built it. Barker was the pro at GCGC who designed Columbia, Rumson, Arcola, Mayfield, etc. It might explain some of Westhampton's uniqueness.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Are you sure that you're not referencing the "Westhampton" course at The Country Club of Virginia ?, rather than Westhampton, New York ?

I don't see any architectural similarity or connection between Arcola and Westhampton other than the McBrides.

But, there's no denying the mirror image of the "short", "redan"
"Biarritz" and others at Westhampton.  Those would seem to present indisputable evidence of Raynor's hand and design philosophy.

The similarity between the 14th green at Westhampton and the 6th green at Piping Rock, both par 5's is also telling.

Raynor was a local, whereas Barker moved to the South in 1911, and subsequently returned to Britain in 1915.  He never returned to America, which would tend to indicate that he was never involved at Westhampton, NY.

Arcola and Rumson were/are sporty courses.
I was just discussing Rumson the other day with some friends.

With respect to Westhampton, it's not just the greens, the bunkering and land forms would seem to suggest the CBM, SR, CB connection.

[T_MacWood]

'From all reports the new Westhampton Beach course is going to be one of the best on Long Island...Herbert Barker laid it out and Raynor, the engineer who did so much for the National and Piping Rock courses, has been supervising that end of the construction.'

02 / 1915

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

The quote is unsubstantiated.

It references, "from all reports"

And, what does "laid it out" mean ?

Barker left America in 1915 and lived in the South from 1911 until his departure in 1915.

Westhampton has many of the CBM - SR holes, something not seen at Rumson or Arcola, two of Barker's designs.

I suspect that the author of the quote might have confused the Westhampton course at The Country Club of Virginia with the Westhampton golf course in New York.  Thus the disclaimer, "from all reports".   He was probably the beneficiary of hearsay and erroneously attributed it to the New York course.

Who authored the article ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Barker was not planted in the ground. While at GCGC he designed courses in Virginia, Oregon, Maryland, North Carolina and Georgia. He got around. Not only over here but he regularly traveled back to England.

He moved from GCGC first to Rumson then to Roebuck in Alabama for a very short time and then finally to CC of Viriginia (Richmond) before going back home to fight in WWI.

While he was in NJ he designed courses in the South. When he was a pro in Alabama he designed courses in the North. While he was a pro in Virigina he collaborated with HS Colt in Illinois and designed a course in Florida.

The article appeared in the USGA Journal edited by Josiah Newman...I believe he was an Englishman like Barker, perhaps he made it up.

Arcola was redesigned in the 20s.

I suspect working with Raynor may have had effect on Westhampton. It appears it was his first project with Raynor and his last design in America.

It could be argued that other than Macdonald - in the years 1909 to 1914 - Barker was the biggest name in golf architecture in America. The money spent on some of his projects was crazy for that period.

[Tom Roewer]

Tommy N. -  Concerning Quogue Field Club, which I have been interested in since first sight of the aerial, is there fact that Raynor designed it? or did he renovate it?  It's said that it was originated in 1897 but I can't find another date for the golf course opening.  I also see what appears to be a Biarritz green.  I would love to see the original 18.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
 George Bahto I believe has some information regarding Quogue. In fact, there maybe something in his book. The place is pretty cool--my kind of golf land that I dream about.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Barker was not planted in the ground. While at GCGC he designed courses in Virginia, Oregon, Maryland, North Carolina and Georgia.

But he wasn't at GCGC after 1911 and Westhampton was built in 1915.

He got around. Not only over here but he regularly traveled back to England.

I'm sure his private jet made travel very easy between 1911 and 1915.

He moved from GCGC first to Rumson then to Roebuck in Alabama for a very short time and then finally to CC of Viriginia (Richmond) before going back home to fight in WWI.


He went back to Britain in 1915.

That you don't see anything suspicious about the fact that he designed the "Westhampton" course at the CC of Virginia prior to 1915 is startling

You don't have any second thoughts, or doubts, that perhaps the author was confused ?  Or, do you accept as gospel, every written word without confirmation from third party sources ?

While he was in NJ he designed courses in the South. When he was a pro in Alabama he designed courses in the North. While he was a pro in Virigina he collaborated with HS Colt in Illinois and designed a course in Florida.

The article appeared in the USGA Journal edited by Josiah Newman...

Who wrote the article ?

I believe he was an Englishman like Barker, perhaps he made it up.

Possibly, but it's more likely that he confused the two golf courses.

Barker designed the "Westhampton" course at the Country Club of Virginia.  That would seem to be more than coincidental and perhaps the error of the author's ways.

After all, the author did say, "from all reports" without ever citing a source.

Arcola was redesigned in the 20s.

I believe the club has earlier pictures of the course.
Some of them used to hang in a grille room prior to the remodeling.

I suspect working with Raynor may have had effect on Westhampton.

What does that mean ?
Either he designed the golf course or Raynor did.

It appears it was his first project with Raynor and his last design in America.

How would it appear so ?
Because one article, without any reference to sources, and possibly confusing the names, indicated that work was going well ?

Have you ever walked or played Westhampton ?
Rumson ?   Arcola ?

Raynor's marks, not Barker's are indelible at Westhampton

It could be argued that other than Macdonald - in the years 1909 to 1914 - Barker was the biggest name in golf architecture in America. The money spent on some of his projects was crazy for that period.

What projects are you referencing ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
You are probably right....the author confused Westhampton in Virginia with Westhampton in NY. Human error.

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