[John_Conley]

I recently experienced a round where I reflected on the remarkable variety of two-shot holes.  What courses do you feel have great par 4s of all sorts?

[cary lichtenstein]

The Quarry at Giants RIdge

[Mark Pearce]

Thinking about this I'd say that my club (The Northumberland GC) has a very varied set of par 4s, offering more variety than anywhere else I can think of quickly.  

[Darren_Kilfara]

I'd be a fool to try and answer this question definitively, but Machrihanish certainly has an incredibly diverse set of par 4s that I never tire of playing.

Cheers,
Darren

[Chris_Clouser]

Crystal Downs.

The great short par 4s are well known.  The long fours of 1, 2 and 13 are all great.  Then the ones that are mid-length 4, 12 and 18 are all really good.  12 may be the only one anybody can find fault with.  

[David_Madison]

Cuscowilla comes to mind as such a course - - wonderful very short fours, a good variety in the middle range, and some long ones requiring a variety of shots. Many different looks and greens complexes, some with run-up possibilities and others better flown in.

[Michael Moore]

Merion Golf Club (East Course)

[Mike_Sweeney]

Merion Golf Club (East Course)

#7 - short par 4
#8 - short par 4
#10 - short par 4
#11 - short par 4
#12 - shortish par 4

Next!

[John Kavanaugh]

I recently experienced a round where I reflected on the remarkable variety of two-shot holes.  What courses do you feel have great par 4s of all sorts?

Not just cause Tony Bennett is on Imus...but you must have loved San Francisco GC...Glad you didn't have to wait till Monday.

[David_Elvins]

Doak's St Andrews Beach has 12 of the most diverse (and interesting) par 4 you are ever likely to see.  From the 5th to the 15th there are 9 par 4s yet not a single player I have ever played with has ever noticed any kind of monotony.  

There is great diversity in length with two sub 300 yard Par 4s and one 500 yard Par 4.  Yet the most impressive thing to me is Holes 7-10, four consecutive Par 4s playing up and back the same valley, all medium length (360-425 yards) yet all offering completely different looks and challenges.  

[Michael Moore]

Merion Golf Club (East Course)

#7 - short par 4
#8 - short par 4
#10 - short par 4
#11 - short par 4
#12 - shortish par 4

Next!

7 - Tiny landing area, uphill approach
8 - Downhill all the way, huge bunker in front
10 - Driveable 75 degree dogleg left uphill all the way
11 - Wide open landing area, stream curls around green
12 - Dogleg right to severly sloping green

Mike, I dare say we need to send you to diversity training or perhaps even some adult ed at "Diversity University" !

[Steve Lapper]

I'd add a few courses:

USA

Quaker Ridge
Fenway
Myopia Hunt Club
Pine Valley
Sand Hills (BTW....neither BN, nor DR could claim this)
Fishers Island
Crystal Downs
Yale
Cypress Point
Prairie Dunes
Kapalua Plantation



International

Kingston Heath
Commonwealth
Ballybunion
The European Club
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen
Turnberry
Royal St. Georges
Sunningdale Old
Walton Heath
Royal Lytham


All the above, IMHO have marvelous examples and representationf of long, short, strategic, and muscular fours.

[Dan_Callahan]

Yale probably has the greatest variety that I have seen.

[JESII]

Mike Sweeney,

Are there any similarities among those holes you listed? I cannot really see any overlap at all other than 7, 8 and 11 really do not offer a driver option to longer players (although I did see a driver or two during the Amateur on #7) I would put #12 in the mid-length category along with 14, 15 and 16. Pretty strong company there, with very little overlap in shots there as well. And finally #'s 5, 6 and 18 are a pretty good representation of the long difficult par 4 wouldn't you say. All three segments ask for shots to work both ways off the tee and offer different green site demands. I would not say it's the most varied set, but I have not seen more variety within one course.

[Adam Clayman]

Varied is too vauge.

Varied in what way?


 Looks off the tee,? Strategy off the tee?  On/around the greens? Playability? Shot demands? Conditions? Wind? Contours? Trees?

[JESII]

Varied is too vauge.

Varied in what way?


 Looks off the tee,? Strategy off the tee?  On/around the greens? Playability? Shot demands? Conditions? Wind? Contours? Trees?

Maybe John Conley should answer as to his intent for the thread in general, but for my post I'll take a stab.

Merion's three par 4 segments (short, medium and long) cover the full gamut of yardage demands for two shot holes. Potentially drivable - Drive and pitch - position club and pitch - Driver or position club and short iron - Driver and short to middle iron - Driver and middle to long iron - Driver and long iron or wood. [/i]

Players are also faced with shape demands within each segment. #7 asks for a draw with a 220 club while #8 asks for a fade. People generally think of these two holes as similar due to their proximity in the round as well as in yardage. A couple small differences, other than tee shot shape; 220 or so is about ideal on both but missing short of that is better on 7 and past that is better on 8 (distance control is rewarded), #7 green is above the fairway and has a very long fairly narrow green which offers a significant distance perception challenge while #8 green sits a bit below the fairway but has such a small green that the challenge is much more weighted on the physical (can you hit the shot?) demands. The greens themselves could hardly be more different with #7 being bout 45 yards long with infinite micro-contours that make any 30 foot putt a challenge while #8 is about 20% of the total sq ft and is laid out with a steep slope from back to front and only room for one small "hump" like feature in its center.

I am sure there is more, and I wish I could go through the whole course like that, but that is my idea of VARIED.

[John Kirk]

Pasatiempo has a nice varied set.

Steve Lapper and I have discussed this before, and will simply have to agree we disagree about Ballyneal.  I admit I was a little irritated when my beloved BN was mentioned specifically as not qualifying.  Steve asserts that our short par 4s turn right to left and favor a draw.  Holes 1, 7, 12, and 14 turn right to left and have bunkers guarding the left side.  9 is straight.  On any given day, one or two of these holes might be driveable for the power player.  After thinking about this for a while, I believe 1 and 12 favor a fade, while 7 and 14 favor a draw, with 9 being neutral.  You can't easily draw the ball into 1; the green slopes that way.  On 12, the green opens up from the left better.

Also, these holes, at 330-380 yards, are only driveable for maybe 5% of the golfers that play there.  I never try to drive them.  So while Steve's observation is a smart one, and well worth considering, I believe the holes actually play more neutral than they look.  Thanks for pulling my chain a bit.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Thanx for that description of Merion. You are correct JC's title doesn't even include the place he cites. Yet everyone chimes in with their favorites. Some even more.
Re; Merion 7 & 8; Most uphill holes are missed short, and downhill ones long. Aren't they?

And, when is Variety for variety's sake, over-done or poorly used?

The most varied course I have ever played is Jasper Park. Everything was different. From the teeing grounds to the look and feel of every hole.

[John_Conley]

Not just cause Tony Bennett is on Imus...but you must have loved San Francisco GC...Glad you didn't have to wait till Monday.

I've not seen San Francisco.  There isn't going to be a conclusive answer here, but I played Pasatiempo on Saturday and was impressed by the variety of two-shotters.  I keep a checklist to look back on after rounds and that course breaks down like this.

Effective length:
0 Drivable
2 Short
2 Medium
2 Average
3 Long
1 Mega
(From a new tee across the road it actually would open with two Megas, but that tee is a little forced and probably not used much.)

Bend:
4 Straight
1+ slight to the right
3 slight to the left
2 hard left

This is the only category that isn't balanced.  #9, a par 5 compensates by going right after the teeshot.

Effective Green Size:
2 Large
2 Small
7 Medium

Terrain:
3 play Uphill
2 are pretty Flat
3 play Uphill
1 slightly Uphill
1 us Uphill & Downhill
(A lot of room for interpretation here, but I found all sorts of looks off the tee.)

Appearance:
Many holes you can't see the green from the tee and just as many are WYSIWYG.

There are forced carries over some barrancas, holes you could run it to the green, wonderful bunkering, and exciting green complexes.

Without breaking from the character of the course, I feel Pasatiempo has wonderful variety is almost every aspect.  Absent are water hazards of any significance, but that's about all that is missing.

[John_Conley]

Pasatiempo has a nice varied set.

Did you know that's where I played?!

[Adam Clayman]

Absent are water hazards of any significance, but that's about all that is missing.

Could only a Floridian feel this way?

[Tom Huckaby]

JC:

Absent water hazards?  What do you call the barrancas in front of 10 tee, left of 11 fairway and in front of 11 green, left of 12 fairway, left of 13, left of 14, left of 16???

I know, you likely mean hazards with visible water.  But those are marked red or yellow as appropriate, as water does run at the bottom of each.

 

Pasa has variety with a capital V, that's for sure.  One hell of a course, no?

TH

[Mike Benham]

Effective length:

3 Long
1 Mega
(From a new tee across the road it actually would open with two Megas, but that tee is a little forced and probably not used much.)

I assume you mean the first two holes although they both are downhill which dilutes the distance to a degree.

Which holes are you defining as the Mega's and Long's?

[JESII]

Re; Merion 7 & 8; Most uphill holes are missed short, and downhill ones long. Aren't they?
Are you suggesting people do not recognize the change in elevation? Or are you suggesting they are too stupid to do anything about it?   Don't answer those questions.

And, when is Variety for variety's sake, over-done or poorly used?
When quality suffers.

The most varied course I have ever played is Jasper Park. Everything was different. From the teeing grounds to the look and feel of every hole.
Never been to Jasper Park, but I think varied teeing grounds would probably bother me. Not sure why, but it's the only facet of a golf course I feel should be consistent....other than green speeds, but I could be swayed on that one.

[Dan Kelly]

Absent are water hazards of any significance, but that's about all that is missing.

Could only a Floridian feel this way?

A Floridian transplanted from Minnesota!

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