[John Chilver-Stainer]

We all know the Old Course has a crossed hole at the 7th and 11th - and they’ve been getting away with it for years.

I’d be interested to know are there any well known courses in the US that have crossed holes, especially modern ones or is it considered “bad practise” and should be avoided at all costs?

[Padraig Dooley]

At Cork GC we have three crossover holes, the first goes over the start of the fifteenth fairway, the drive from the eleventh goes over the tenth green and the drive from the fifteenth goes over the fourteenth green and the start of the first fairway.

Pace of play is not affected by the crossovers and there are no real safety issues, the crossovers at 1,14 and 15 get the best out of a tight piece of land by the clubhouse. I only noticed how unusual this number of crossovers was when a visitor mentioned it a couple of years ago.

Of the more modern courses, Doonbeg has a couple of crossovers, but the snail issue forced them out of the dunes and gave them less land to work with .

Up the road Lahinch has the fourth and eighteenth crossing over with a gentleman positioned on the Klondyke to indicate when it is safe to play.

I'm don't recall any crossovers on courses I've played in the US, but I think they're ok, especially when land is tight and safety isn't compromised.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

It's amazing how cross-over holes work in GB. You can almost swear you never knew you were crossing on some of them when encoutering them for the first time.

Alwoodley is another crossover that took me for a complete surprise, but maybe that had a lot to do with how cold my huevos were from the wind chill off of the Moors in early July!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Here is Ran's picture of the 5th Double Diamond tee at Sand Hills over the 4th green. The 5th Diamond tee makes the hole play straighter.



The 8th tee at Mid Ocean in Bermuda plays over the 7th green. In both cases, you climb up to a tee, so I believe the architect saw value in the tee shot, and by the time that the following group gets to the green, it would not be a problem.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Thanks for the insight into crossed holes on Irish courses Padraig, the US Courses Mike and the English Courses Tommy!

In Scotland there are many, Nairn and Lanark being more high profile examples and dozens further down the scale.

In Switzerland the National Association have recently ruled that new golf courses with crossed holes as ineligible for handicap rating - presumably taking some of their courses off the official handicap map and certainly limiting any new projects.

In some ways it’s a good idea to ensure that safety standards remain high - in another way it’s a pity that standardisation has taken another trick out of the GCA’s bag. Personally I think the Association has scored an  “own goal” in possibly reducing the quality of a golf course, as often 2 crossed holes provide a more interesting challenge due to increased length and interesting Tee positions, than forcing 2 non-crossed holes of mediocrity.

[Kyle Harris]

I'd love to build a new back tee on the 9th at Manufacturers' that crosses the 8th hole.

Since the crossing point would be over the quarry, and the golfers walk behind where I'd put the new tee on their way to the 8th green anyway, safety wouldn't be a concern.

[Brad Klein]

Bonus points to Royal Porthcawl in Wales, whose first tee shot (heading west) crosses 90-degrees with the approach into the 18th green (heading south).

The only new crossover I can recall is the tee shot to the par-3 Bye hole at Sebonack, fired over the middle of the 1st green that's played from the oncoming/opposite direction from the right.
 
As with everything else in life, once lawyers get involved in golf, all of the fun is lost.

[Evan_Green]

The tee shots on holes #1 and 4 at Tehama criss cross each other.

In addition, one hole at Stone Eagle crosses over the previous green. I believe it is the tee shot on 9 crossing over the green on #8.

Also Sequoyah CC and Claremont CC (SF East Bay) have them - both older courses though.

They are pretty rare though these days.

[D_Malley]

the new course at stonewall, has a tee that crosses over the previous holes green.  i think it is the 15th hole.  It probably is seldom used.  mr. Doak said he sometimes puts tees like this in on private courses which do not have high volume play.

[Sean_A]

Easily the greatest cross over combination I have seen is #s 16 (O.L.) & 17 (L.O.) at North Wales GC.  Both are stunning par threes of about equal length with reverse strategies.  16 is a blind punchbowl hole and 17 is sort of a plateau/shelf  hole.  If one is in the area of Conwy it is well worth a visit to North Wales if only to see these two holes.  If you are lucky enough to play the course in high summer, the dry, running conditions (perhaps the most extreme I have ever encountered) is a real eye opener into how golf used to be played before irrigation came along.  

Ciao

Sean

[Tommy_Naccarato]

While technically it is a cross over, I don't consider tee over green to be a true cross-over, not in the same character as some of the holes mentioned.

JC-S,
When I visited St. Andrews in June-July 1996, I was quite taken with that area of the property, spending a lot of none golfing time out there as well.  I would grab a couple of those in the plastic container, egg sandwiches and a couple of Diet Cokes and walk out there and sit in various locations of the gorse and just watch, gaze, study and wonder. I'm not oging to say that this is the norm, but each and every time, I was amazed how each group would not interfere, and nary a wait on the 7th & the 11th. The timing was uncanny.

Another GREAT, and I mean GREAT cross-over is the side-by-side 5th & 8th on the Eden Course. While the holes might be called repeticious by some, I can honestly say I thought both of them had their own very unique character.

[James Bennett]

While technically it is a cross over, I don't consider tee over green to be a true cross-over, not in the same character as some of the holes mentioned.

Here is an example from Moortown.  This is the #5 hole, with the back tee played straight over the green.  It is a better line for the hole from here (a sharp dog leg left).  The regular play tee is behiond the green, in the left of picture.  It would be possible on #5 from the back tee to hit a low drive and get 'flagged by the preceding pin of #4!



James B

[Tommy_Naccarato]

James,
Are those shelters the same original shelters from when the course opened? Distinct in my memory is one of the same looking structures in the image of the Gilbralter Hole from the early 1920's. (It's located behind the green if memory serves me right)

[James Bennett]

Tommy

I don't know.  It was nearly 12 months since I was there, but I expect they are a sympathetic copy/well maintained (new timber) version if they are similar to Gibralter.  There are others here on GCA who might know. or who could find out.  Mark Rowlinson was able to find out that the practice putting green wasn't rebuilt to USGA specs (unlike the other greens) at nearby Alwoodley, so I expect he could find out anything!

If I am lucky enough to revisit it will be at least 6 months before I get there, so I won't be much use for this question.

James B

[Kevin Pallier]

They worked well at Royal West Norfolk # 2 & #17 but one of the wierdest I've seen is # 5 at Royal Worlington which crosses # 4 and # 6 and it is a great hole.

[Ally Mcintosh]

another classic crossover in ireland (to add to padraigs) is the 16th tee-shot over the middle of the 15th hole at carlow... carlow is a great heathland course that is worth a stop for anyone and these are two of the best holes on the golf course...

...there are loads of examples (some quite eccentric ones too) in scotland as was also mentioned but one of the best is the two front nine par threes (5th and 8th) on st.andrews eden

[James Bennett]

Tommy

further to the Alwoodley crossing on #3 (crossing #16).

I was re-reading my Doak/Scott/Haddock book on MacKenzie, and the two drawings of the Alwoodley layout have the tee shot on #3 on the other side of #16.  That is, the golfer walked across #16 hole from #2 green to play #3 teeshot.  I don't know when the tee was put back and into the longer par 5 it is today.  The notes indicate it was originally a hole of about 415 yards.  So, the green was designed originally to take a long second shot, I guess!

Similarly, #8 at Alwoodley was originally about 450 yards (according to the plans in The Life and Work of Alistair MacKenzie), and so did not cross over the #7 par 3.  Of course today, #8 is a longer hole which from the back tee is played from the other side of the #7 hole, perhaps adding about 70 yards to the hole.

Of course, it is not clear what the par of these holes was intended to be, perhaps because the concept of par was not critical to the good Doctor's form of architecture.

James B

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