K Club

« **on:** September 24, 2006, 01:54:10 PM »

Given that Dr Smurfit's pitch to Palmer almost certainly had nothing to do with creating a golf course that would be fun and interesting for the average golfer, and was rather, I suggest we can assume, to create a Europen Made For TV golf course along the lines of Sawgrass. After Sunday's play, which was the most fun I've had watching pro golf on TV for a long time, can we regard the project as a success?

« **Reply #1 on:** September 24, 2006, 02:09:38 PM »

Lloyd: That was the most fun you've had watching golf on TV in years? Really?

I have not seen the course in person so I won't comment on it directly, but for exciting TV golf, I think it was a lot more fun to watch guys making birdies and eagles than gutting it out over five-footers for par as they do at the US Open.

If / when I build a course for a Tour event, it is going to have a lot of par fives with a lot of trouble around the greens ... but I hope I can make them look less contrived than the ones at the K Club.

« **Reply #2 on:** September 24, 2006, 02:27:38 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 24, 2006, 02:09:38 PM

Lloyd: That was the most fun you've had watching golf on TV in years? Really?

Tom,
Going OT here, my thread was intended to question the success of the course as a project with the Ryder Cup as an end.
I am English. So I'm biased, I suppose. But Casey vs Furyk?? Isn't that about the best golf of the year? And for the whole NBC coverage - when did we see so many 20, 30, 40 footers going in? That coupled with McGinley's concession mde it a truly great day for golf, I thought.
BTW - I've played the course, before the recent changes, in similar conditions, and for a decent club player it was just a slog.

« **Reply #3 on:** September 24, 2006, 02:31:09 PM »

Lloyd Cole,

Since you have played the course, would you or could you say that the greens lacked the internal contouring that might help explain why so many putts were made? To me, there weren't very many putts that were difficult to read....easy to say form a recliner, however.

Joe

« **Reply #4 on:** September 24, 2006, 02:43:34 PM »

Watching it in HD, I thought it was one of the more attractive courses I have seen of late. In some ways it looked like some of Palmer's other work such as Bay Hill with the rock walls along the water's edge with a thin layer of soil and grass above them. But unlike Bay Hill it had more contour and the trees were much more of the specimen variety. I think you have to accept it for what it is and while it isn't a Tillinghast gem, I liked the look of it.

« **Reply #5 on:** September 24, 2006, 02:48:05 PM »

Quote from: Joe Hancock on September 24, 2006, 02:31:09 PM

Lloyd Cole,

Since you have played the course, would you or could you say that the greens lacked the internal contouring that might help explain why so many putts were made? To me, there weren't very many putts that were difficult to read....easy to say form a recliner, however.

Joe

Joe, I admit that I don't remeber much about the greens when I played, it was very wet then, also. But overall I think I disagree - I saw quite few putts today where the players were playing 15 feet of break, and the 16th was a double breaker from the back level. Over the first two days we saw many of the 'top players' struglling to hole out. Today, the quality of golf was just inspired. Furyk's putt on 16 there was just fantastic. Manty's bunker shot on 18 to leave an uphill putt was sublime. And I think the list goes on.

« **Reply #6 on:** September 24, 2006, 04:15:35 PM »

Quote from: Greg Beaulieu on September 24, 2006, 02:43:34 PM

Watching it in HD, I thought it was one of the more attractive courses I have seen of late. In some ways it looked like some of Palmer's other work such as Bay Hill with the rock walls along the water's edge with a thin layer of soil and grass above them. But unlike Bay Hill it had more contour and the trees were much more of the specimen variety. I think you have to accept it for what it is and while it isn't a Tillinghast gem, I liked the look of it.

Greg - well said. However, you describe exactly why I think the K club is a failure - It is a Florida/Carolinia course mystically transported to County Kildare Ireland. Ireland is not the place where I ever want to see an American style course, especially one that's so typically American from the pre-new-Golden age of architecture.

That said, I thought the golf played was absolutely wonderful and inspirational.

« **Reply #7 on:** September 24, 2006, 04:25:38 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 24, 2006, 02:09:38 PM

Lloyd: That was the most fun you've had watching golf on TV in years? Really?

I have not seen the course in person so I won't comment on it directly, but for exciting TV golf, I think it was a lot more fun to watch guys making birdies and eagles than gutting it out over five-footers for par as they do at the US Open.

If / when I build a course for a Tour event, it is going to have a lot of par fives with a lot of trouble around the greens ... but I hope I can make them look less contrived than the ones at the K Club.

Im totally asking this out of curiosity not trying to start anything but why do they look contrived to you, just trying to learn?

Also talking about the green contours, some of the greens are mild and some of them have some great curves in them. I had a great time playing there last month and like everyone said it would have been great to see it at a more traditional course but none of the other courses we saw could come close to handling it.

« **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2006, 04:57:42 PM »

As a matchplay course, specifically re the Ryder Cup it was brilliant. 16, 17 and 18 were great matchplay holes. Very much like the Belfry it lends itself to great drama.

However, wild horses couldn't drag me to play it - especially at the price. Portmarnock, The European Club and numerous other quality courses within easy reach. Why would you play at the K Club?

« **Reply #9 on:** September 24, 2006, 05:03:21 PM »

Quote from: Ed Tilley on September 24, 2006, 04:57:42 PM

As a matchplay course, specifically re the Ryder Cup it was brilliant. 16, 17 and 18 were great matchplay holes. Very much like the Belfry it lends itself to great drama.

However, wild horses couldn't drag me to play it - especially at the price. Portmarnock, The European Club and numerous other quality courses within easy reach. Why would you play at the K Club?

Somebody is playing it knowing how busy the place is and how the hotel is sold way in advance. I do agree there are other incredible courses in the area and also within a few hour drive. I dont know much about the club culture in Ireland so does anyone know what types of members the K Club has compared to other courses?

« **Reply #10 on:** September 24, 2006, 05:35:56 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd_Cole on September 24, 2006, 01:54:10 PM

After Sunday's play, which was the most fun I've had watching pro golf on TV for a long time, can we regard the project as a success?

I am really interested to see how the Jack Nicklaus redesign of St Patrick's goes. The developers are from Dublin, and they will obviously be trying to get international clientel to St Pat's. Donegal is a long way from Dublin, but the Celtic Tiger is reaching out, so it will be interesting to see how Americanized St Pat's becomes. Never played it, but it appears to me THE most Irish course in name and other.

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/111605.php

« **Reply #11 on:** September 24, 2006, 06:04:20 PM »

I don't think however many TV viewers who tuned in cared a jot about the green contours. I thought it all worked well, but I am not a fan of the K Club.

« **Reply #12 on:** September 24, 2006, 06:53:47 PM »

Lloyd,

I played it last year. There is plenty of contour on the greens but it is more of the large scale roll found in modern greens and less of the more abrupt or subtle rolls found in old courses. It's easier to make putts on modern greens, you just follow the drainage lines.

The golf course is truly awful, one of the least interesting and most contrived I have played, but you know what - it worked well for the Ryder Cup. Lots of gambling and the 16th was a great hole at the right spot.

I always thought the Befry was a dog but I think the Ryder Cup is a great event regardless of course because of the nature of the matches. The course doesn't matter near as much as the event.

« **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2006, 11:03:38 PM »

OT....congrats on your new record Lloyd

« **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2006, 11:08:13 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Lewis on September 24, 2006, 11:03:38 PM

OT....congrats on your new record Lloyd

I always wondered if it was the same guy... not sure how your golf game is Lloyd, but you're a lot better off the course than those Hootie and... guys.

« **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2006, 12:15:59 AM »

Quote from: Jeff_Lewis on September 24, 2006, 11:03:38 PM

OT....congrats on your new record Lloyd

Thanks, I'm in that awful 'waiting for the reviews to come in' mode, right now. So far, so good, but one can't get ahead of oneself...

« **Reply #16 on:** September 25, 2006, 01:46:47 AM »

Does *every* course look better when the format is match play?

« **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2006, 03:08:48 AM »

Quote from: Ed Tilley on September 24, 2006, 04:57:42 PM

I dont know much about the club culture in Ireland so does anyone know what types of members the K Club has compared to other courses?

The K Club members are there to be rich, rather than play golf. In general, they wouldn't be the friendliest members in the country. They used to have an open week, but the members objected, because poor people were playing the course.

« **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2006, 09:56:59 AM »

earlier last week, i posted what membership of the k-club cost... coverage on sky has just forced me to realise that i severely underestimated... it is over €500,000 to join plus €10,000 a year on top...

i.e. it is aimed at the rich and pompous

ridiculous...

« **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2006, 11:26:47 AM »

I thought the golf course looked contrived, artificial and gimmicky. It looked like an international version of Kemper Lakes from suburban Chicago, one of the worst courses ever to host a major championship. Watching the telecast on Sunday, I was laughing out loud as Johnny Miller, he the self-appointed arbiter of calculating the caliber of championship sites for golf, fairly gushed about the design genius of the Palmer Course. I, of course, knew what was coming: ten minutes later, Arnold was in the booth talking about his design. Johnny, you are a self absorbed gasbag and a phony flannel mouth if there ever was one. You rip good golf courses and then fellate the King about an undeniably pedestrian golf course. Shame shame shame.

« **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2006, 12:53:44 PM »

Interesting, I think, more than a few here who will not even consider the concept that a bad course can make for good TV and therefore a successful venture. Of course I'm not suggesting it is a good course, but I am suggesting that Smurfit wasn't looking for what would be considered, here anyway, a good course.
As a musician, I find it difficult to enjoy much music which is in the same ballpark as the one I'm trying to work in. This is a drag.
Is it possible that some of us here are not able to enjoy golf, however well played, even watching it, unless the course being played on is acceptable to them??

« **Reply #21 on:** September 25, 2006, 01:24:35 PM »

I object to water as the primary hazard on golf course and I have no interest in playing the K-Club; however, it worked for the Ryder Cup. And water was the primary reason it worked. Lots of make or break shots for the world's best.

« **Reply #22 on:** September 25, 2006, 01:33:51 PM »

My favorite shots were the chip ins and the putts with huge breaks ; my least favorite were the mishits into the water. Match play can be great fun when it comes down to the short game or recovery shot .

More strategic courses would most likely lead to tighter matches because one guy/team would not be dead but I find that more engaging .

« **Reply #23 on:** September 25, 2006, 01:40:46 PM »

My favorite shots were Tiger hitting it in the water on one and Furyk hitting the duck hook into the water to lose the match in the afternoon. Swings like those deserve recovery like Mel Gibson deserves rehab..

Golfers didn't mind the K-Club (excellent name btw) which proved to be an entertaining venue...for golfers that is..

« **Reply #24 on:** September 25, 2006, 01:49:14 PM »

I think Furyk's shot was insignificant ; they were already down one going into the hole. How about Clarke's chip to closeout Furyk / Woods ? I prefer chances to make a good shot versus "death" .

Although I would agree it was all over when Tiger hit it in the water on #1

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