[Matt_Ward]

I am traveling through the Commonwealth of Virginia and have to say that the usage of bermuda -- both fairways and greens during summer months is absolute torture for both a playing standpoint and from an architectural exericse.

Frankly, I understand why bermuda is the turf of choice for nearly all courses south of DC and east of the Mississippi with exceptions along the way so please don't respond and say, "Hey Matt, what the hell did you expect?"

Far too often bermuda plays like a giant size soft mattress which negates any real tie-in to the rolling of the ball. The game becomes nearly always an aerial one and often times the greens, although they may be full, are often very grainy and slow. In addiiton, the rough needs to be kept to a maximum height of 2-3 inches otherwise you do the Easter egg hunt on most holes.

I went to college in the south and frankly I am glad I don't have to play anywhere near my full quota of golf on such a hideous surface -- especially during the summer months.

Bermuda plays marginally better when dormant but if I don't play another course with the surface ever again I won't be crying myself to sleep because of the deprivation.

Anyone who desires SOME sort of ground option will be waiting a long time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Old bermuda greens were famous for the one big hop.  New varieties hardly ball mark, no matter how wet they may be, and get less of, but still a bounce. No doubt the criteria is to get them more like bent in play characteristics.

I agree long bermuda is a tough rough. I still spec common over 419 just because its not so dense.

I don't know that bermuda in the fw area needs to be wet. Its very drought tolerant.  Here in Texas it usually is not.  Are you sure you aren't playing on Zoysia in that region? Now that will limit some roll!

I built a nine holer near Lynchburg years ago, and recall it was transition zone. Zoysia wasn't popular then, and if memory serves, the dividing line between cool and warm season grasses was route 29.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Frankly, one uses Zoysia for the preseveration of turf -- not for the maximum effect of any serious aerial option. The old Bermuda is simply hideous as a playing surface in the summer. It is the personification of point-to-point golf and a real yawn to boot.

Anyone playing in Virginia and Kentucky, again minus the very few exceptions, to name two states in that no man's land, deserves a lifetime of fine fescue grass that runs like a crook from the cops.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, thank you for your annual blast the bermuda post. Please just spare us the talk and do not come down here and expose yourself to this torment. All grasses have their good points and bad points. Bent does not do well in 12 month golf climates where it is hot during the summer. I like many of the new bermuda strains. I really like them better than poa especially during the dormant times. As for the fairways, I could not disagree with you more. It is still a matter of maintenance practices as to the ground playability. No, it is not as playable as some grasses but we do play on it year round and that my friend walks the walk and talks the talk.

[Bill_McBride]

Here on the Gulf Coast I personally think the dwarf hybrids of bermuda work well on green surfaces, so long as the super is willing to cut frequently and roll once a week.  

I too hate the deep bermuda rough, again that's a maintenance issue, it can be mowed to 1-1/2" and be quite playable.

Management of the irrigation is critical - it's easy to overwater.

I don't think fescues would survive.

[BCrosby]

Matt -

I agree and disagree.

FW Bermuda can be cut so low these days that most good courses in the SE provide plenty of fairway bounce. The problem is that in the hot months they can't cut it as low as they might want to. So, yes, it can be less than ideal.

You may be too young to remember a time before irrigation in the SE. Bermuda survives quite well with very little water. Back in the early '60's we played on a lot of rock hard clay courses with browned out Bermuda. They were lightening fast. Faster than anything I've played since.

Courses in the SE could turn off the sprinklers and the Bermuda would survive quite well. You and I would love it. That's how Bobby Jones played East Lake in the summer. The fairways were asphalt runways.

The problem with my solution is that the supers would be fired the next day.

Bob  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I must conclude that you are a "grassist."

I grew up in the north and prefer cool season grasses to Bermuda as well. Having seen the light and moved to the great state of Texas, I simply learned to adapt to that like I adapt to grits.  Better bermuda than no golf at all.

I still say that all bermuda isn't as you describe from your trip.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

What did you think of the Bermudagrass at The Rawls Course?

How about Augusta's?  Or Royal Melbourne's?

It is possible to get a good bermuda playing surface -- it's just a matter of verticutting and topdressing and doing all the other things you have to do to get a great surface anywhere else.  But most course operators in the deep South have no interest in good conditions, because the customers don't demand it, because they've gotten used to the stereotype of what bermudagrass provides.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

We have Bermuda at my courses here in Florida. Admirals Cove closes each course for 2 whole months and the Ritz keeps their course open, but it us hardly worth playing until the holes and verticutting heal.

I'm afraid the 3 aeriations each does takes it toil, so the snow birds can have prestine conditions until the grass goes dormant and then the lies become very thin.

Cary

[T.J. Sturges]

Yeamans Hall is in the top 5 in this country for presenting firm and fast conditions and they have bermuda turf on much of the course. Presented as it is at Yeamans it is one of the most enjoyable playing surfaces I have encountered.  It all depends on what type of bermuda and how the supt. presents what is there.

TS

[Aaron Katz]

It's a pain to putt on sometimes, but I think well conditioned bermuda can be a real joy to play on.  Because it can pretty much survive without water, properly maintained it can be nice and crusty with a firm base.  I love when my home course in Arizona is so dry that it's almost like playing on dirt.  It can get incredibly fast during the summer months sometimes!  

[ChasLawler]

I am traveling through the Commonwealth of Virginia and have to say that the usage of bermuda -- both fairways and greens during summer months is absolute torture for both a playing standpoint and from an architectural exericse.

Matt,
I'd be curious to know where you played, as I don't know of ANY courses in the state of Virginia that have bermuda greens.

I'm in Richmond, and my club has bent greens and tifsport fairways. When mother nature allows, the course plays plenty firm - just as firm as anywhere I've played up north - and I haven't noticed any especially grueling maintenance practices.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Matt
I suggest you play on more Bermuda...it can be a great surface in the summer to play from and to...especailly the newer strands.
Thr champion and mini verde if taken care of will produce a firm and fast putting surface.
At Reunion GC in Jackson Miss earlier this year we played an evebt where the  bermuda greens were stimpling at 13 and were superb...but as Tom said they top dress every monday and take care of their surfaces.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I played The Rawls Course in October and the conditions were quite good. My post was on courses just south of the Mason Dixon line and those that seem to overdue the H20 on old strains of Bermuda. The surface is indeed very slow and features the aerial game exclusively.

I have not played Royal Melbourne and can't comment. Regarding Augusta -- the same statement plus the fact that the folks there have the deepest of pockets to get the turf anyway they wish to have plus have the wherewithal to tap into expertise both on and off-site.

Tiger B:

I am quite familiar with the faciltiies in the region I did state --if you read what I posted -- that summer months in the area just south of the Mason Dixon can be quite vexing if any thought of an aerial game is contemplated.

I clearly feel for the superintendents who inhabit the area of Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, to name just three in the region.

Gents:

Most of the rationale being provided is tied to the fact that many people call the region home and have to rationalize the fact that the overall speed of the turf is quite limited minus the investment that certain clubs put forward in getting optimum outcomes. Those clubs are indeed among the few -- and not among the many.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Most of the rationale being provided is tied to the fact that many people call the region home and have to rationalize the fact that the overall speed of the turf is quite limited minus the investment that certain clubs put forward in getting optimum outcomes. Those clubs are indeed among the few -- and not among the many.

Matt,

There are 15,000 courses in the US. How many have you played, 1200 or so - less than 10%?

For the most part this board only talks about "the few -- and not among the many" in most areas of the country, so what is your point?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ted,
  What ranking are you reading that has "Top 5 for fast and firm with grass coverage...?" I played Yeamans this summer, and granted, alway a delight to play, the overall turf coverage wasn't up to par. Some MAJOR shade issues and it's my understanding there there are some people who'd like to see it a little better manicured. It's a special place and as a golfer, you have to accepted that it's not going to be perfectly manicured. Yeamans, like Long Cove, has a variety of grasses that take and need different amounts of water, chemical and fertilizers...too many off types. The best summer bermubad grass I've ever played on is at Berkeley Hall-Incredibly fast and firm and fairways mowed at .325...unbelievable awesome!

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club

[paul cowley]

Matt....I was going to compare northern turf conditions in early spring and late fall with the poor growing months for bermuda but I don't think I'll bother....ain't nothin gonna bust your bubble world and I don't think its worth the energy to take your bait .

[Joe Hancock]

Matt,

You wouldn't be able to imagine how awful the fairways were I was in charge of in NC. Common bermudagrass with zero fairway irrigation capabilities...

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe H:

I salute your effort at what likely was the most thankless of jobs. I also salute those superintendents in the war zone between climate regions who most deal with this situation all the time. At some point the range of miracles they can produce does become limited.

Mike:

I make it a point to play the more noted courses in the USA. I try to avoid the dog tracks I played when I grew up and learned the game. My comments are meant for the so-called better name courses.

Got it now -- Mike. Forgive me for the confusion.

Paul C:

I never gave a pass to the Northeast but I'm speaking about turf conditions during the optimum time frame to play. If you consider March or November as being the optimum time frame in the Northeast then you better check your calendar again.

[ChasLawler]

I never gave a pass to the Northeast but I'm speaking about turf conditions during the optimum time frame to play. If you consider March or November as being the optimum time frame in the Northeast then you better check your calendar again.

If you consider the summer months as the optimum time frame just South of the Mason Dixon line, then you better check your calendar again.

Again - please elaborate on what courses you played from which you are drawing your conclusions...and which ones had bermuda greens?

[Matt_Ward]

Cabell Ackerly:

I'm not naming courses at this moment as I have an article forthcoming and I'd rather wait than list them now on a public Website. I'd like to hold my thunder until then if you don't mind. For your own edification -- the places I played in the Commonwealth of Virginia did have bermuda greens.

Clearly, the summer is more optimum for the area I described then either March or November is for the Northeast.

One last thing -- I'll go a step further -- there are places with bent fairways no better than the ones with bermuda which also overdose with H20 and offer little, if any, aerial option. Two wrongs, however, don't make a right.  

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm sitting here trying to imagine golfers in New Jersey today seeing tee shots bounding everywhere into the gorse and heather, playing bump and run shots from 30 yds. off the green, putting from 25 feet off the green, and so forth.  I say trying to imagine because they ain't playing golf that way in New Jersey.

You talk about bermuda like its mud or something, Matt.  You need to play more courses that aren't resorts that overwater to get a lush green look to get lush green tourista dollars.  My club in Georgia virtually NEVER waters fairways in the summer, and the greens are firm except from mid-July through the end of August, which is necessary to keep them alive.

Tell you what; check back in 4 months.  We'll endure the bermuda mess down here, and keep right on playing through the winter.  We all have our crosses to bear...

[ChasLawler]

Cabell Ackerly:

I'm not naming courses at this moment as I have an article forthcoming and I'd rather wait than list them now on a public Website. I'd like to hold my thunder until then if you don't mind. For your own edification -- the places I played in the Commonwealth of Virginia did have bermuda greens.

Matt - not that I ever gave your opinion much credence anyway, but now it's truly clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Beyond making hasty generalizations about the nature and playablity of bermuda grass, I honestly don't believe you know how to tell the difference between bermuda and bent greens.  Forget what courses you are writing an article on, please tell me what courses in Virginia you have played that have bermuda greens?

[Bill Gayne]

I'm also in Virginia and I haven't done enough "heavy lifting" to play all of the courses in Virginia but I can't recall a single one with bermuda greens. Ten days ago I played Williamsburg Country Club and the fairways and rough are all bermuda. I thought the conditions were great. Fairways were firmed and shots rolled out. They don't over water at Williamsburg CC.

Cabell,

Have you played the Spring Creek in Zions Crossing yet? I'm heading out there on Friday for the first time.

[ChasLawler]

Bill - I haven't played Spring Creek and honestly didn't even know it existed until about a week ago when I read a blurb about it in the Virginia Golfer. It sounds interesting though, and I'd be interested to hear what you think.  

It seems as if a bunch of courses are opening up around and west of Charlottesville that look very compelling...Spring Creek, Old Trail, Packsaddle Ridge, Buena Vista Links, Poplar Grove. While I haven't played any of them, I'm pretty sure they all have bent grass greens

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