[cary lichtenstein]

I thought I would start a thread where we could express to the architects some design features we do not see very often, and would like to see more of.

I'll start:

1. Crumpled fairways. Highland Links in Cape Breton and Ballyneal really showed me how well this can be done and how much fun it is

2. Unusal greens: Rather than the boring flat, or the predictable lower shelf, upper shelf, greens with unusal shapes and contouring.

[Aaron Katz]

Redan style greens used on par 4's.  Why do we only see them on par 3 holes?  It would make tee shot placement extraordinarily important.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

Cross Bunkers and Centerline bunkers

Canted Greens that Cant in the Opposite direction from their Canted fairways

[Brad Tufts]

Quirk.....

not so much the unfair kind...but the kind that deceives, adds difficulty, and makes the player think to execute the shot...call it hard par, easy bogey quirk....

[John Shimp]

Fewer sand bunkers.  Bunkers at many courses are more aids than hazards as they aren't positioned in a way that gets you nervous (like a center bunker).

[Phil McDade]

1) Partially hidden greens.

2) The use of the land in which the hole partially reveals itself as you play it -- see GCA profile of Lawsonia for how Langford expertly did this.

3) Misdirection off the tee -- see examples from point 2. Don't make it obvious where you need to go standing on the tee box.

[Ted Kramer]

A few that have been on my mind recently ...

*Bunkers in fairways
*semi-blind landing areas (great topic by M Ward in another thread)
*skyline greens
*uphill approaches in general

-Ted

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted Kramer,

Thanks,

How could I forget Skyline greens, one of the neatest features in golf, especially when a little wind is present

[A.G._Crockett]

A few that have been on my mind recently ...

*Bunkers in fairways
*semi-blind landing areas (great topic by M Ward in another thread)
*skyline greens
*uphill approaches in general

-Ted

A very good list; I'll go with this.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Call me crazy, but crossing fairways.

[JSlonis]

Call me crazy, but crossing fairways.

Great idea!  Especially on public courses that have fully stocked beer carts...no potential problems there.

[A.G._Crockett]

Call me crazy, but crossing fairways.

Jeff,
You're crazy.
Regards,
A.G.

[wsmorrison]

Interrupted fairways in proper locations.  Admittedly this is not an easy design feature to get right.  The interruptions at Cascades and Kittansett are very effective and visually interesting.

Greens that on the first half along the line of play run back to front and the second half run front to back.  Can anyone name a famous classic hole where this is used?  Variations left to right can be done as well.

[cary lichtenstein]

Call me crazy, but crossing fairways.

Great idea!  Especially on public courses that have fully stocked beer carts...no potential problems there.

If we're going with is, let's go all the way and  throw in the Hooter's gal to drive the beer carts

[Philippe Binette]

High grass protecting one side of a green and really close...

Imagine a fairly open green, but on the right side:
a 3 feet wide fringe and then long grass (7 to 10 inches)...
doesn't look too scary but put a pin 17 feet from it, only the gutsy will play to it, most will bail left, and great recoveries could be done from it

[Jordan Wall]

I think design features like what is shown below are pretty fun.
It adds flavor and deceit all in one, IMO.

I finally got a chance to play my first Coore and Crenshaw course today, Talking Stick North. I had a great time and most of what I heard was true, great bunkering, wide fairways, some great green contours etc.....

I am very lucky to have been playing as single because the hole named "BRASSIE" embarrassed the hell out of me. The hole from the middle tee plays to about 217 yards, so I pull out a 5 wood. This is what I see from the tee:



So what to do? There is a big ass bunker right in front of the green which judging by the rest of the bunkers so far is about 3 feet deep. I highly doubt my 5 wood will hold the green if I could even make it there on the fly.

So I play left hoping to get a little draw or a nice bounce to the green, you know the safe play.

I end up missing a little long and left of the green, just as Ran’s course profile mentions, a difficult position to save par.

But as I drive up to my tee shot (we drive in the desert because it’s kind of hot here and no, Jordan, the cart paths were not hidden (you would hate this place )) I see the massive bunker is nowhere near the green

Look at this mess:



(Yea, that’s at least 20 yards short of the green)

[Ted Kramer]

I think design features like what is shown below are pretty fun.
It adds flavor and deceit all in one, IMO.

I finally got a chance to play my first Coore and Crenshaw course today, Talking Stick North. I had a great time and most of what I heard was true, great bunkering, wide fairways, some great green contours etc.....

I am very lucky to have been playing as single because the hole named "BRASSIE" embarrassed the hell out of me. The hole from the middle tee plays to about 217 yards, so I pull out a 5 wood. This is what I see from the tee:



So what to do? There is a big ass bunker right in front of the green which judging by the rest of the bunkers so far is about 3 feet deep. I highly doubt my 5 wood will hold the green if I could even make it there on the fly.

So I play left hoping to get a little draw or a nice bounce to the green, you know the safe play.

I end up missing a little long and left of the green, just as Ran’s course profile mentions, a difficult position to save par.

But as I drive up to my tee shot (we drive in the desert because it’s kind of hot here and no, Jordan, the cart paths were not hidden (you would hate this place )) I see the massive bunker is nowhere near the green

Look at this mess:



(Yea, that’s at least 20 yards short of the green)

Bethpage Black #13 uses this feature very well.

-Ted

[Jason Topp]

One feature I have noticed that distinguishes the good vs. really good modern courses are the greens.  Putts at Sand Hills and Barnbougle Dunes are very interesting to read because you are constany gauging the effect of large and subtle slope changes against the effect of the general slope of the terrain or the wind.  I think these greens recreate the greens on golden age courses that have similar challenges, either due to design or changes over the years.  

By contrast, other courses either have pretty general slopes that do not vary a lot (Shadow Creek and Primm Valley come to mind).

[cary lichtenstein]

I'm really sort of surprised, this topic only got 17 responses, and none in the last 5 hours so I bumped it to the first page.

I thought everybody would jump on this?

How come to poor response?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jason,

This might be a question for its own topic, but philosophically, many players prefer a putt they can read and execute.  The argument against the random and multiple contours in green designs is that the putt becomes more luck than skill.

I am not saying I agree with that, but just for the sake of argument, how would you  (or anyone else for that matter) argue against that contention?

[Jeff_Brauer]

High grass protecting one side of a green and really close...

Imagine a fairly open green, but on the right side:
a 3 feet wide fringe and then long grass (7 to 10 inches)...
doesn't look too scary but put a pin 17 feet from it, only the gutsy will play to it, most will bail left, and great recoveries could be done from it

Phillipe,

I once had a tour pro suggest that on the first green of a course we were co-designing.  I started doing some math, and given that the safe zone (mowed turf) increases by the square of the radius, the number of balls kept in play really rises for every yard out you put the grass.

A 50 foot radius green amounts to 7500 SF. Add just 3 foot of safe turf around it and that rises to 8427 SF.  Add another 10 feet and it rises to 11,907, or a quarter acre, which is a lot easier to hit.

A practical problem is the irrigation - irrigating native grasses with greenside sprinklers usually leads to vegetation far too thick and the difficulty can become near imossible.

Details on an idea like that make the difference, even if used on a course where overall difficulty for the average player isn't a huge concern.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Cary,

I'm trying to build up the response count for ya.  

I wouldn't feel bad, since many of my threads seemingly net very few responses.  Anything outside my own response to myself is a bonus!

Or as they said in Ferris Buehler's Day Off - "Anyone?  Anyone?"

I think this group responds less to theoretical threads, as opposed to commenting on a real live course.  Perhaps its not easy for the majority of us to think in abstract design terms, although your question was phrased specifically enough to generate some good ideas.

[Jeff_Brauer]

How about the good old fashioned dome or crowned fw, like CBM used at NGLA or Ross had at Pine Needles?

[Shane Gurnett]

False sides on greens.
Fairway bunkers that are in the fairways.
Contoured rough lines rather than straight lines.
Single bunkered greens.

[Ryan Heiman]

Color

I hate playing courses where it is green as far as the eye can see.  Use of color as far as tall brown rough, white sand, or even red sand(saw it in south UT) or black sand or pine straw or wildflowers or whatever comes natural, but use variantion. Even dark green and light green at times.

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