[mike_malone]

I loved TOC the first time I played it on Sat. Then I played it again on Mon. What is beyond love?

  Today I played the Old Links at Musselburgh. It is 5 blocks from my B+B and only nine holes.

    I played with three "members" on Sat. I went to the course straight off the plane , arriving at 1:30. The starter was straightforward. He suggested I return at 4 to see if there may be an opening. When I came back he said 3 members were playing at 4:50 and maybe they would welcome a fourth. At 4:45 the starter came over to me and said I needed to ask them if it was okay. They were reluctant because the last time they played with a guy from Miami who hit it onto the Himalayas from #1 and then played it from there and was constantly taking pictures.

   I told them I was from Philadelphia and that was entirely different. Plus they could see my small carry bag and less than 14 clubs. So, off we went. On the second tee one said I was his partner and I wasn't getting strokes. He was a 4. The others were 8 and 10.They said the greens were wet and so the putting was off and they did not like the change in the road hole bunker.




   I was most surprised by the complexity of the double greens and the use of gorse to create blindness off the tee.


     Two questions for you experts:

        Was there any man made influence on the greens?


        Does the gorse hide bunkers that would otherwise be visible from the tee?

     Monday I played with a couple from Kentucky at 11:45. I went to the starter's place at 5:45. I was #18. #1 got there at 3:30 A.M.

YOU WANT TO BE SURE TO PLAY TOC? SHOW UP AT 3:00.


     

    Musselburgh Old was firmer than TOC. I would love to find out how it has changed and what the proposed changes are.  One hole seemed to be dumbed down --#3. There was 100 yards of gorse directly behind the green, but I wondered if the tee was moved to the right to make people happier. It eliminated a blind shot.

   The most fun hole was #4. The course is inside a racetrack. On #4 the fence is  on your right. The track ends some 60 yards before the green. If you looked back from the green you see the straightaway.

  BTW I hit my second shot to #18 as a 93 yard putt.


     More later!

[Mark_Fine]

Mayday,
Glad to see you are finally getting some proper education.  I will let someone else address your questions as one could type for hours.  You might want to start reading a few good architecture books.
Have fun!
Mark

[ForkaB]

Mayday

The hand of man is all over the greens on the Old Course.  The outward half of the double greens on 2 through 6 and 1, 17 and 18 were all built in recent times (i.e. ~150 years ago ).  The surfaces of all the greens were significantly ameliorated (agronomically) by Old Tom Morris during his ~40 year tenure as keeper of the green.

As for the gorse bushes being deliberately planted to hide bunkers, I doubt it.  You don't grow gorse, you try to control it.  What are now the 2nd to 6th fairways of TOC (and the New and Jubilee Courses) used to be a sea of gorse and the local ladies used to hang their washing on them to dry.

[Chris Kane]

Mayday, I'm living in St Andrews at the moment - give me a call if you're a chance to catch up for a drink.  07852634898.

Chris.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mayday,

I played the two courses a couple of weeks ago.  Lucky you to draw local players for the Old Course.

I don't think that the gorse at TOC was intended to hide the bunkers.  Many of the bunkers are well hidden.  Even on the holes that aren't blind, it's hard to see the bunkers - #12 for instance.  I could only tell if I missed the bunkers if the ball bounced.

When I got on TOC as a single, I arrived at 11:30 am, and was 14th on the list.  Some had gone away (told like you to return at 5 pm).  Some weren't around when they called.  I checked back every half hour looking plaintiff, and got off by 2:30.  It helps to check the posted starting sheet to see how many, and when the
openings are.

Speaking of drinks, did you stop at  Mrs Formans for one on the 4th green at Musselburgh.

[mike_malone]

Chris,

   Thanks for the thought but I'm on the other side of Edinburgh.


   Bryan,

    I don't happen to drink so it not enter my mind.



    Rich,


   I guess I can see where your skepticism about "restoration" comes from. Very few courses haven't been tinkered with. I couldn't imagine those TOC greens as natural.




   N.Berwick took a little while to grow on me but by the turn I was into it. Prred the Redan by hitting driver over the back center and hitting a good putt .


    Why don't we speak of the need for the two deep bunkers short of the green as part of a "Redan". They created fear and uncertainty.

[Bill_McBride]

North Berwick took a little while to grow on me but by the turn I was into it. Prred the Redan by hitting driver over the back center and hitting a good putt.

Driver?

Unless there was a four club wind, from the non-prevailing direction, you might have driven from the wrong tee box!  There are a couple of tees there, I guess #5 or 6 going the other way?

[Bryan Izatt]

Mayday,

I don't drink either, but it struck me as quirky as to how close the green and the gate to the patio were.

Looks like you're on the same routing I was a few weeks ago.

As Bill says, a driver on the Redan hole?  I hit 8 iron to the front of the green from the yellow tees with a one or two club following wind.

Redanman,

The Pit was great, but what about Perfection?  What a great run of holes on that part of the curse.

[mike_malone]

Bill,

   When I get tired and the wind is strong from the left I use a driver and let it fade. I figured being over the back center or left would be okay and it was.


    I want to comment on the gentlemanliness of the starter's I encountered at TOC.They were as helpful as possible. They were under constant seige from people who thought they could walk up and get off in a minute!

[Doug Siebert]

Wow, are there really people so clueless to think you don't need to make a tee time in advance at the oldest and most famous golf course in the world, they can just walk up and expect to tee off right away?

They ought to take their names and put them on a separate list from those who know how lucky they are when they happen to be able to walk on and are willing to wait hours, even all day if necessary with no guarantee of success.  There would be the normal list of those who get any extra spots that appear, and the separate list of the idiots which is just updated faithfully throughout the day and tossed in the garbage at closing time

[ForkaB]

   Rich,


   I guess I can see where your skepticism about "restoration" comes from. Very few courses haven't been tinkered with. I couldn't imagine those TOC greens as natural.

Mayday

I'm not at all "sceptical" about restoration--if it makes for a better golf course, I'm all for it; if it's done just for the sake of restoration, my left eyebrow tweaks a bit...

Vis a vis the Old Course, from what little I know, what work was done did not involve any massive earthmoving.  So, the green are mostly "natural", even if ameliorated.

[Bryan Izatt]

Redanman,

Yes, indeed, it is perfection.

Doug,

As a single, there is no way to book in advance.  Registering with the starter is the only way to get on.  In the three hours that I sat there and patiently waited, there was no one I saw hassling the starter to get on.  The starter complained a bit to me that singles who registered often wandered off and weren't available when a slot came up and he called them.  Better for those further down the list I guess..

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

   When I get tired and the wind is strong from the left I use a driver and let it fade. I figured being over the back center or left would be okay and it was.


    I want to comment on the gentlemanliness of the starter's I encountered at TOC.They were as helpful as possible. They were under constant seige from people who thought they could walk up and get off in a minute!

Just further validation of the joy of being able to use many different shots/clubs to get the job done on a links course!  I too am jealous of you and Bryan Izatt.  Wish I were there!  

[ed_getka]

Mayday,
   Sounds like your adventure is off to a nice start. 93 yard putt on #18, well done.

[mike_malone]

Ed,


   Sorry, I meant to say #9 . It was at Musselburgh. I did have a fun putt to #18 at N.Berwick. I was some 35-40 yards with a left pin. There was a crumpled piece of ground between me and the pin. I needed to hit a one foot wide section or be kicked down into a valley. It was a blast.

[BCrosby]

Your excitment is infectious, Mayday. Keep it coming.

Bob

[mike_malone]

Alright, Bob, then I'll tell you how I bested Tiger. #12 at TOC  was downwind.It plays to about 300 yards. There are two bunkers set about 220 from the tee and another 30 yards from the green. The green has a small plateau.I managed to avoid all the bunkers and roll onto the plateau some 12 feet from the hole. Unfortunately, I lipped out my eagle. Take that, Tiger!!!

[Doug Siebert]

mayday,

That brings back memories of my last visit to TOC...  #12 was playing into a slight breeze so I knew I couldn't carry that last bunker, but I figured it was pretty small and I was driving well that day so I'd just hit driver over the rest and hope I missed that last one.  As it turned out, I hit right at it -- bounced over it -- rolled on the green, saw it start climbing the slope up to the top of the plateau where the pin was....then roll back down to the bottom again.  I was probably a foot away from having the same 12 foot eagle putt as you, but was instead left with a three putt par.

It sure was fun watching that ball in the air going toward the bunker, hoping it would somehow miss it, see it hop and not know for a second until I saw it continue on on the other side that it had made it over, trundle up on the green and roll up that slope right where the pin was.  I was probably standing there on the tee watching for 20 or 25 seconds after I hit that ball until the excitement was over.  Captures the theory about fun being maximized by a long wait to see the outcome of your shot perfectly!  And its that way at TOC all day because there aren't many places you can possibly hit where the ball can't take an unexpected bounce or roll that may leave you in a better or worse place than you expect or deserve!!

Quite a different level of excitement compared to a drive into a soft fairway where if it is down the middle you turn away two seconds after you've hit it and start looking for your tee because there's nothing exciting left to see.

[mike_malone]

The first time around my favorite hole at TOC was #5. This was probably because it is on the front nine and less heralded. Even though I butchered it, I still loved the shot over the spectacle bunkers and the deep swale in front of a green that then sloped front to back for 100 yards!

   The second time it was the Eden. Both days the pin was just beyond the Strath bunker. I assume that is actually an easy pin since there is such a severe slope in the back that stops balls.

[mike_malone]

I recommend the Eildon B+B in Musselburgh ;It is close by everything ---the proprietor is looking over my shoulder---- but I still. say go there

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