[Jim Franklin]

I just got back from The Greenbrier and thought the restoration of the Old White course was terrific. I have been going there since 1989, but have not been there since 2003. The course certainly was harder for the good player, but a lot harder for the average player.

The first hole is still the best opening hole in golf. If you have not been there you need to trust me, it is awesome. Years ago it was like Merion's first hole as people dined under an awning right next to the tee, but this was enclosed for Sam Snead's nightclub a few years back. It is an elevated tee shot with the mountains in the background. 450 from the tips.

#2 had the hog's back feature of the fairway extended all of the way to the green. My playing partners thought it was too hard, but I liked the challenge. The green was now very difficult from what it was in the past.

#3 is now a full Biarritz green. Thursday I hit 4 iron to a back pin and the next day it was 8 iron to a front pin.

#5 had the biggest change as they added mounds to the left of the green. It was my favorite green site of the weekend. One of my playing partners lost his putter in the mounds, but fortunately it was found the next day.

#18 had a huge "horse shoe" ridge added to the green which I thought was cool. Again, my high handicapped friends thought it was too much, but I thought it added to the challenge. My question to them was on a 130 yard hole do you just want a big flat green so you can make a par and go home? On a short hole I thought the horse shoe was great. Add 50 yards and maybe not, but I thought it was good.

All in all I think Lester George did a terrific job with the restoration. I always thought I liked The Cascades Course at The Homestead the best of the two resorts, but not anymore. The Old White Course is well worth the trip and any MacDonald fan will appreciate what Lester did.

[ChipOat]

After I walked the Old White 3 years ago, I put up a thread here that said I thought it was "dumbed down" MacDonald.  It's as if his orders were, "we want the prestige of your signature but this is a resort so don't make it very hard" (which may have been the case).  For instance, if I didn't know I was supposed to be looking at a Redan green, I would never have made the connection.  Once I knew it, it was pretty watered down, IMO.  The alleged Cape hole was another total non-event to me.

Lester George had just started his work.  I hope he gave it some real MacDonald/Raynor teeth instead of just restoring the course to a blurred image of what CBM could really do.

[Jim Franklin]

Chip -

I believe you would be surprised. I thought the course was easily 4 or 5 shots harder. As for the Cape hole, it was not one of my favorites, but I still liked the hole. I am not sure how long cape holes are generally. This is 402 from the tips.

They are trying to let the tall grasses grow, but it is very wet there and that grass grows thick and players won't find there balls. For example, my brother, a solid 40 handicap, hit a shot from the thick stuff that went maybe a foot and could not find it. In Scotland, that tall grass gets dry and wispy. It is a challenge to add teeth and keep it playable for the masses.  I thought Lester did a great job.

[APBernstein]

The previous incarnation of The Old White wasn't "dumbed down" MacDonald, there was simply NO MacDonald there at all.  At least not that I could see.

The Old White had turned into a very bland parkland course with no character.  Now, after Lester George's reclamation, it is back in a big way.  I have nothing but praise for the new course (just wish I had some pictures).

I truly believe it can now give Pete Dye Golf Club a run for its money for "Best in State".

[Jim Franklin]

Andrew -

I was thinking the same thing although Pete Dye GC is one of my all time favorites. I did like it better than the Cascades course at the Homestead though. I thought it was just a fun, interesting layout.

Jim

[cary lichtenstein]

Jim:

Bette and I will be at both Greenbriar and Homestead in Sept, avoiding the heart of the hurricane season here in Florida.

I have scheduled 2 rounds at the Greenbriar course and one on the Old White, should I switch that around?

At the Homestead, I scheduled 2 rounds at the Cascades.

Is Oakhurst there and could you please tell me if that is worth playing.

Cary

[APBernstein]

My West Virginia inferiority-complex requires me to point out that The Greenbrier is located in SE West Virginia, no SW Virginia -- same with Oakhurst, both of which are located in White Sulphur Springs, WV.

I have scheduled 2 rounds at the Greenbriar course and one on the Old White, should I switch that around?

Yes, definitely switch that around.  The Greenbrier is a good course and a very tough test, but the new Old White is fantastic.

[cary lichtenstein]

How far is Primland?

[Greg Tallman]

Have to agree with Andrew... play Old White twice

Greenbrier Sporting Club(Fazio) worthwhile if you have the connections.

Not too terribly far is another relatively good track(you are in the area) Glade Springs Cobb Course is pretty good although I have hear of renovations that stretched it out quite a bit.

Depending on where you are coming from you may want to spend an extra day or so and make the trek to Pete Dye Club (few hours away) in Bridgeport. Certainly worth it.  

[Ken Fry]

Is Oakhurst there and could you please tell me if that is worth playing.

Cary

Cary,

Oakhurst is mere minutes away from Greenbrier.  Certainly worth a trip around with the old equipment.  A great experience of how golf use to be played.

Ken

[cary lichtenstein]

I have played the Pete Dye Club and for whatever reasons, I was underwhelmed.

[Jim Franklin]

Cary -

I would do 2 at the Old White and the other at the Sporting Club (I believe you could manage your way onto that one). I have never played Oakhurst so the others can comment on that one. I hear Primland is pretty good, but do not know where it is, but it can't be too far compared to how far you have driven.

Jim

[Phil Benedict]

I also found the Old White to be a bit of a letdown, despite the marvelous setting and great first hole.  Not even close to the standard of the other MacDonald/Raynor/Banks courses I've played (Yale, Fox Chapel, Whippoorwill, Mid-Ocean).  I thought the renovations made the course a bit schitzophrenic.  The newly added long grass doesn't fit with the rest of the course.

I like the Greenbriar resort but you need to take out a second mortgage to be able to afford it.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Photos of the Lester George restoration can be found here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=15897

[Jason Mandel]

Jim:

Bette and I will be at both Greenbriar and Homestead in Sept, avoiding the heart of the hurricane season here in Florida.

I have scheduled 2 rounds at the Greenbriar course and one on the Old White, should I switch that around?

Cary

Cary,

I would definitily switch that around as well.  I played both about 5 years ago and even before the restoration I appreciated Old White much more than the Greenbriar course.  

It is a fantastic resort, too bad Slamming Sammy is no longer around.

Jason

[cary lichtenstein]

The photos look nice, but "not special or compelling", am I interpreting them correctly?

[APBernstein]

The photos look nice, but "not special or compelling", am I interpreting them correctly?

Well when the options are The Old White or a 1970s Nicklaus course, these pictures are compelling enough.

[Jim Franklin]

Cary -

There are no pictures of the front 9 and I thought that 9 was the best. You will enjoy it more than The Greenbrier course.

Jim

[APBernstein]

Lester George asked me to post the following pictures from The Old White's opening day.  When he sees this, he should certainly be able to give a better description.



The 8th (Redan):





6th:



15th:



3rd (Biarritz):



5th:

[ChipOat]

Looks like some good work was done.

I'd like to talk about those big cone-shaped mounds someday, though.

Redan bunker looks impressive; my recollection is that there is no back bunker and the green doesn't have much L-R slope.

That wouldn't necessarily be something that Mr. George was supposed to amend although I hope he did.

[Jim Franklin]

Chip -

There is definitely not as much R-L slope on the Redan like there is at NGLA or Chicago GC, but the ball will slide that way if hit properly (coming from a guy that plays a cut ).

The Mounds are pretty cool. I loved the ones to the left of the 5th green. They really made me feel like I was overseas.

[Greg Tallman]

Cary, Anything specific you did not like at PDGC? I thought there were several excellent holes 2,6,12(yes 12), 17 green and 18 while few, if any, clunkers(although many would call 12 a clunker I am sure.

Honestly none of the courses at Greenbrier are great but they are fun and perhpas the best aspect is the lack of similarity between Old White and Greenbrier(Ryder Cup).

Maybe the answer is play each on days 1 and 2 and decide for yourself or get on at the Sporting Club.

Old White certainly has its share of excellent holes but a few yawners. Two different green concept on 16 was a little different and we never seemed to play the right green in the times I have played there. The final two holes were somewhat underwhelming although I believe the reintroduction of the horshoe ridge at 18 should liven it up a bit.

Caddies used to be quite good there. Never forget as a collegian playing there in State Am tourney and having a 74 year old named Earl... At 19 I knew everything and did not ask him to read greens. Well after being fooled a few times I finally, on hole 6, asked him if knew how to read greens and while I honestly don't recall I am sure it was in a tone that was not all that friendly (remember I was 19)... Well his response was absolutely priceless... and in a tone that CERTAINLY got my attention.

"Son, I knew every inch of these greens before your daddy over there was born and after watching these first 5 holes I'd say you're asking about 5 holes too late" Needless to say I heeded his advice and wound up contending that year.

Sorry to get off topic the thread brought back some old memories.

[david h. carroll]

Having just been in Virginia Beach and spending some time over at The Cavalier, these pix look great...Lester seems to being some really good work in the Mac/Raynor/Banks renovate category...at Cavalier, he splashed some bunkers a bit, but the reinsertion of them was great, the green contours were a blast and I think if there was ever anything that qualified as a hidden gem....it could be the place.

Par 69, maxed out at 6400-6500 with a cemetery and one of the niftiest short par 4's the 14th(i think), a great set of 3 shotters--I love his work on the biarritz and short(the short is fantastically raised and fully encircled with sand), and just a generally nice low key atmosphere to the entire place.

Lester could be Virginia's finest.

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