[Bill_McBride]

I admit to some cognitive disorders but this one is bothering me.

A.C. Read Golf Course is a pretty good 27-hole track owned by the U.S. Navy at NAS Pensacola.  It's been around since the '60's, I have no idea who designed it originally but Jerry Pate did a renovation of the greens, tees and bunkers two years ago.

The Lakeview-Bayview nines combination from the blue tees (one up) has a course rating of 70.3 and a slope of 132.

Those numbers don't connect or correlate for me at all and I'm hoping someone can straighten me out on this.

For what it's worth, the course does play slightly more difficult than you might think because the greens are on the small side and the bunkers pretty deep.

But that is still quite a disparity.

Thanks in advance for any clarification or demystification.

[JohnV]

The slope is a measure of the relative difference between the difficulty for the scratch player and the bogey player.  It represents the difference between the scratch (or course) rating and the bogey rating (what the bogey golfer would average on his 10 best of 20 rounds.)

A slope of 132 with a course rating of 70.2 translates to a bogey rating of 94.7, meaning that it plays about 3.5 shots tougher than the "standard" course with a slope of 113 and a course rating of 70.2 which would have a bogey rating of 91.2.

Small greens and deep bunkers could increase the bogey rating pretty quickly, particularly if there were a number of par 3s in the 180-190 range, par 4s in the 350-360 range and par 5s in the 500-530 range as these would lead to long approach shots for the bogey golfer and relatively shorter ones for the scratch golfer.

Also, given this is Florida, water with carries at distances that were tough for the bogey golfer, but not too bad for the scratch would increase the bogey rating relative to the course rating.

Hope this helps.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, John, that is a very coherent explanation!  And is actually quite reflective of the conditions there.

So is there a chart that lays out a cross table for CR and slope that identifies in this case that 3.5 stroke difference?

[Matt_Cohn]

The Ranch is 72.4/152

[Michael Whitaker]

Here you go, Bill:

http://www.usga.org/questions/faqs/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=24

Divide the Slope by 5.381, then add the Course Rating.

132/5.381 + 70.3 = 94.8

152/5.381 + 72.4 = 100.6

[JohnV]

Michael is correct.  It is a reversal of the basic formula which says:

Slope = (BogeyRating - CourseRating) * 5.381

When rating courses an evaluation of it is made for both golfers and the rating for each is calculated.  From that the Slope is calculated.  The Slope is the relative rise in difficulty over the run of handicap indexes.  If you think of a graph of the two points, it is the "slope" of the line on the graph.

Don't ask where the 5.381 comes from.  Other than the warped minds of Dean Knuth and the others who came up with the system, I have no idea.

[Brad Tufts]

Just played Oakley CC, where Ross was the pro when he first came to the US....the rating/slope is 69.3/130....par 71, 6025 yards.

Fun, but rather claustrophobic.  You wish they could take out some of the trees, but they already have, and the remaining ones are there more for safety than anything.

[peter_p]

John,
    Instead of slope, wouldn't it be easier to list what your bogey golfer is supposed to shoot instead of some math mumbo-jumbo that is never explainable.
    Some political parties have figured out how to give a clear and concise message, while another bounces all over the place with logic. One wins, the other loses. Go figure (D-OR).
    How easy is this to understand? 69.7/87.6   74.2/79.8
70.5/91.9.
   

[David_Tepper]

Bill -
 
Surely you remember De Laveaga in Santa Cruz from your NorCal days! Barely 5,800 yards and par-72, yet from the Blues, the rating/slope is 70.0/136. From the Whites, it is 68.4/132.

Near as I can recall, there are either red, yellow or white stakes (or some combination thereof) on every hole.

DT  

[Bill_McBride]

David, I spent way too much time across town at Pasatiempo, I think I only played Delaveaga once or twice.  It is a tough little rascal though, that's quite a slope.

[johnk]

One thing to watch out for when playing club matches against players of courses that have low CR / high slope:  the members of the low/high course will have higher handicaps than they would on a more normal CR / Slope course.

In other words - they will be sand baggin' dogs.

My proof point - and it's only one data point, but I'm sure my Santa Clara County friends will agree it's statistically indisputable: Summit Pointe...

QED.

[JeffTodd]

Just played Oakley CC, where Ross was the pro when he first came to the US....the rating/slope is 69.3/130....par 71, 6025 yards.

Fun, but rather claustrophobic.  You wish they could take out some of the trees, but they already have, and the remaining ones are there more for safety than anything.

I just played Port Royal in Bermuda a few weeks back. Very similar; fun but claustrophobic. 71.1/135 @ 6561, and 68.5/129 @ 5977. Without a doubt a straight hitting low capper can do some damage, and a bogey golfer who sprays the ball will have a very long day.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

One may make a fairly good case that a golf course with a highish course rating and a lowish slope may be something of an "ideal" course in that it should challenge the good player (scratch player which course rating is based on) and at the same time be relatively accomodating to the less good player (handicapper). This kind of mix is fairly rare, though, I think. Such an example is Aronimink in Philly---eg very high course rating (more than four strokes over its par) and a slope in the mid 120s.

[Jim Nugent]

John,
    Instead of slope, wouldn't it be easier to list what your bogey golfer is supposed to shoot instead of some math mumbo-jumbo that is never explainable.
      How easy is this to understand? 69.7/87.6   74.2/79.8
70.5/91.9.
   

Peter -- that was my first thought too.  Slope adds in an unneccesary term and calculation.  Actually, it makes things worse, because it is more confusing.  

Who determines what scratch and bogey golfers will usually shoot on a specific course -- and how do they determine it?  i.e., how are bogey and course ratings figured out, and who does it?

[peter_p]

Jim,
   The golf associations do it with course rating and slope calculations. Why don't they do one more calculation, letting us know what a USGA 18.0 handicapper would shoot? Instead they leave us with an unfinished math problem and wonder why all the kids are waving their hands with questions.

[Jordan Wall]

Tobacco Road has a low rating/high slope

151 slope I think from the website...

[Jim Nugent]

Peter, from the way John and you presented it, I thought slope is a derivative of bogey and course rating.  i.e. first you come up with course and bogey rating.  Then you do the calculation for scope.  

Scope does tell one thing bogey by itself does not.  But it also hides other things, too.  Showing bogey and course ratings shows everything slope does, plus a whole lot more.

In other words, I like your suggestion, Peter.  Instead of course rating and slope, show course rating and bogey rating.  

I still would like to know the specifics of how course rating and bogey rating are calculated.  Do they take a bunch of scratch and bogey golfers, let them play the courses, and average their scores?  Or is it theoretical?  Does the USGA do it?    

[JohnV]

Jim,
   The golf associations do it with course rating and slope calculations. Why don't they do one more calculation, letting us know what a USGA 18.0 handicapper would shoot? Instead they leave us with an unfinished math problem and wonder why all the kids are waving their hands with questions.

The USGA publishes the Bogey Rating in its course rating database on its website.

Having the two ratings published without the slope would mean that you would need a different type of "Slope" table that would be unique for each pair of ratings.  Changing it to a slope table means you only need tables for the possible slopes.

Jim,
Courses are rated by regional associations and their volunteers.    There is a very specific process which I gone through way to many times on this site to restate it again.  Each association must send its team leaders to calibration seminars every few years to ensure that all associations are doing things in the same way (or at least as close as possible.)  The USGA also teaches classes in rating around the country each spring that raters attend.

[JohnV]

Jim,

A team of 3 or 4 raters goes to a site and after getting very detailed measurements of the course and the distances to various things such as water, OB etc they use the manual provided by the USGA to complete the rating, rating the course for both the scratch and bogey golfer.  The rating is quite analytical, taking most of the base values straight from tables, but there is quite a bit of latitude for the raters to adjust those values based on what they are seeing.  Each hole has a yardage that is measured.  The yardage can be adjusted for factors such as elevation change, doglegs etc.  The hole is then rated on 10 obstacle factors that can have values between 0 and 10 for that hole.

After all the holes are rated for both golfers, the numbers are run through a series of calculations to determine the scratch and bogey rating and finally the slope.

No time for more detail right now, you can try to search the archives for when I've gone into greater detail if you want.

[Andy Troeger]

Bill:

One may make a fairly good case that a golf course with a highish course rating and a lowish slope may be something of an "ideal" course in that it should challenge the good player (scratch player which course rating is based on) and at the same time be relatively accomodating to the less good player (handicapper). This kind of mix is fairly rare, though, I think. Such an example is Aronimink in Philly---eg very high course rating (more than four strokes over its par) and a slope in the mid 120s.

TEPaul,
I think you're right on here, and the low rating/high slope combination is generally undesirable (although there obviously have to be exceptions to both rules...Tobacco Road evidently is one). The course that exemplifies this for me is one that has numerous forced carries and wide landing areas, so its pretty easy for an accomplished ball striker but very difficult for short hitters/weak players. You end up with a rating of 72 or so and a slope near 140. That side of it to me is not ideal...if its going to be a hard golf course find a way to make it hard for everyone, not just a weaker player!

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim and anyone else who cares to learn more about this, feel free to email me as well.  I am a course rater in this honorable sense of that term, and whereas John V. is FAR more expert than I am at all of this since I've only been doing it five years, well I'd be happy to answer any questions also.  So far JV has explained the process and details VERY well.

John K. - yes, players from Summitpointe generally do seem to be sandbagging dogs - their 12-man teams generally do VERY well and it was just amazing the number of 12 handicaps they had that shot 77 or less at Santa Teresa.... So you nailed it - low CR, high slope would lead to handicaps that let's just say travel well.

Interestingly, we do the re-rate there on July 31.  Maybe we'll fix things.  Usually normal 6-year re-rates like this aren't supposed to come out much differently in the numbers, but one never knows.

BTW, seeing this Topic brings up one of my hot-button issues here, one I've brought up many times, and it's the same thing TEP mentioned:  wouldn't the perfect, most fun for all golf course be HIGH course rating, LOW slope?  Of course that's pretty tough to achieve - unless you actively tried to do it - but still, what that means is that the scratch player is challenged, the bogey player has a fighting chance to do well.  We have a great example of it here in the Bay Area - Monarch Bay in San Leandro.  Here are its numbers:

Men
Professional      71        74.1     128      7015
Tournament      71        73.7     127      6937    
Championship   71        72.1     124      6567
Member           71        69.5     121      6061


TH
huckaby72@yahoo.com

[Glenn Spencer]

The slope is a measure of the relative difference between the difficulty for the scratch player and the bogey player.  It represents the difference between the scratch (or course) rating and the bogey rating (what the bogey golfer would average on his 10 best of 20 rounds.)

A slope of 132 with a course rating of 70.2 translates to a bogey rating of 94.7, meaning that it plays about 3.5 shots tougher than the "standard" course with a slope of 113 and a course rating of 70.2 which would have a bogey rating of 91.2.

Small greens and deep bunkers could increase the bogey rating pretty quickly, particularly if there were a number of par 3s in the 180-190 range, par 4s in the 350-360 range and par 5s in the 500-530 range as these would lead to long approach shots for the bogey golfer and relatively shorter ones for the scratch golfer.

Also, given this is Florida, water with carries at distances that were tough for the bogey golfer, but not too bad for the scratch would increase the bogey rating relative to the course rating.

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much, 25 years of playing golf and someone finally says it in a way that is easy to understand, instead of 'oh, that is a barometer of how hard the course is.' Now I completely understand it, miracles may never cease. Thanks John!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:  JV is the MAN for this stuff.  He's also one of two or three MEN for all rules questions as well.  The man is a seething cauldron of golf knowledge, and he dispenses it well and explains it even better.  We are very lucky to have him here.

But seeing all this also reminds me of the biggest pet peeve I have in this game, and that is the misunderstanding of what slope is.  SO many golfers - and even worse, developers and marketers - look at it as a measure of pure difficulty, which of course using JV's explanation it is not.  Oh sure, a high slope course is gonna be a tough one for one and all, but it is NOT NOT NOT something to be celebrated!  Dammit if you want people to have fun, it ought to be something you are ashamed of.... It just freakin' kills me when I see ads proclaiming "come play our slope 152 course - highest in the area" like that's some badge of honor.  Anyone with a brain ought to avoid such course like the plague, not seek it out....

OK, rant over.  But one more thing:  add me to the bandwagon wishing courses would put Bogey Ratings on scorecards.  THAT is the number the average golfer would get some value from, far more than slope.  Slope is really just a mathematical value, very useful for handicapping, but unless it's fully understood (which so few do), it hurts more than it helps in terms of understanding what to expect from a golf course.  Bogey Rating is simple to understand... But yes, JV is right, for purpose of determining your handicap you do need to know the slope... so go ahead and publish that also... but man some education on this would be great.  get people to know what Bogey Rating means, get them to focus on that, leave Slope just for handicap purposes and remove it as a marketing tool/badge of honor.  That's what the game needs... I've been crusading for years on this, have made very little traction.  It is cool such are listed on the USGA website anyway though!

OK, now the rant is over.
 

[John_Cullum]

What are the numbers on the Merion courses?

[Tom Huckaby]

What are the numbers on the Merion courses?

East
forward 69.5/135
middle 70.8/141
back 72.4/142


West
front 66.4/110
middle 67.8/115
back 68.9/117

TH

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