[Jay Flemma]

I wrote the rest of my short biopic of Mike's career on my website and I really hope the Strantz fans like it.

It got me thinking about a really hard question...

Here we go again with the "Chateau Briand vs. double porterhouse" debate again, but which is YOUR fave or your vote for "Better" - MPCC Shore course or Tobacco Road?

My FAVE is The Road, but I think MPCC might be his greater accomplishment...any thoughts?

[cary lichtenstein]

While I think  MPCC is an excellent piece of work, Tobacco Rd is Mike Strantz, it is a living, breathing momumnet to his talent, and while not recognized as such by a lot of GCA folks, it is by me.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Cary.

Not having played many Mike Strantz courses (only True Blue, MPCC Shore, Tobacco Road and Caledonia) I can't truly say what constitutes the essence of his work. But when I hear the name "Strantz" I picture holes at Tobacco Road almost exclusively.

Actually, to take a stab at defining my own vision of the essential Mike Strantz it would be this. Spending a day on one of his courses makes other architects seem cautious or even mincing by comparison. I mean if you're going to create a slope, go ahead and create a real slope not a little baby tilt. If a hole is going to curve, make it a major curve not just a bit of a bend. Contours and features on a Strantz course are bolder, larger in scale and just feel "more real" than similar elements of a typical golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

I look forward to playing the Shore Course at MPCC sometime in the future, I know it will be a great experience.

In the meantime, I have to look at Tobacco Road as a unique, unforgettable experience.  With the exception of Painswick in its overdose of quirk, there is nothing I'm aware of quite like the Road.  It is definitely worth a trip out of your way.

[Ted Kramer]

Where does Caledonia rank for those who have played all three?

-Ted

[Jay Flemma]

Boy again, here's where it KILLS me be rank order.  I mean caledonia is an absolute gem...absolute gem!  But when the steelers play the cowboys somebody has to win...I have to put it JUuuuuuuust below both, but next in line for sure...then maybe royal new kent.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jay,

Wonderful piece at your blog. Good on you for taking the time to write on Mike and his career. I enjoyed it very much.

Best,

[George Pazin]

Boy again, here's where it KILLS me be rank order.  I mean caledonia is an absolute gem...absolute gem!  But when the steelers play the cowboys somebody has to win...I have to put it JUuuuuuuust below both, but next in line for sure...then maybe royal new kent.

And we all know who that someone is. Just look at Super Bowls X and XIII.

XXX doesn't count, our qb was on the take.

I really enjoy TR, I can only hope to enjoy Mike's other courses as much. He seems to have held a pretty high standard throughout his too brief career.

[Jay Flemma]

attaboy george!!!!!!!!!

[Brad Klein]

I might be overlooking one, but here goes:

9.2: Tobacco Road
9.1: Monterey Peninsula CC-Shore Course (fantastic holes, but 17th and 18th bring it down a little)
9.0: Caledonia Golf & Fish

7. Royal New Kent

6. True Blue

3. Stonehouse

have not seen Bull's Bay or Tot Hill Farm  

[James Edwards]

Yes, I would say Tobacco Road hands down.... It is a stand alone piece of work/architecture for me... even from the first tee, you cant help but stand in amazement that someone had the courage to move earth to that degree and create mounds that high and continue it across the golf course - the detailing of the tees is simply stunning... beautiful edges and forms everywhere... as well as not forgetting great golf hole after great golf hole.  It is also one of the best golf courses to photograph!  Certianly in my collection anyway..

Well done MS.. one of the best for my money!

[Tom Huckaby]

I've never played Tobacco Road.  So I need education here.

James Edwards - TR is "hands down" better than MPCC-Shore?  That's a pretty strong statement.  From the pics and from descriptions given by the many here who have played TR, it does seem to me from afar that TR likely much better showcases Strantz's style and personality... but is it hands-down a better golf course than MPCC Shore?  Is that what you meant?  If so, why is it so much better?

Separately to Brad Klein:  I played MPCC-Shore yesterday, and in fact was discussing #17 with our host as we played it.  I find it to be a brilliant golf hole - looks easy but somehow, some way manages to kick your ass.  Players forget the creek hugging the green, and said green is brilliant in its contours.  I'd agree it's not the best hole on the course, but I wouldn't say it lets down the rest of the course either.  #18 I can seeing getting that moniker - it's just a strange golf hole all round.  But I have come to respect and admire #17 very much, in fact more each playing.  I believe our host, who's obviously played it at least 100 times now, would agree.  NO biggie here - just curious how far you take this re 17.

TH

[Jay Flemma]

Brad, Bull's Bay is a tour de force.  The entire front nine is atmospheric.  I know you wrote a nice piece when Mike died and know you appreciate his work, so I think you'd dig it.

A question.  Do you agree that the "tacking back to the clubhouse" (that's my aphorism for it) at MPCC is disimilar to what mackenzie described in Spirit of St. Adrews and keeping the end of CPC somewhat dialed down to increase potential swings in matches?

Here's a pic form the clubhouse at BB.

[Tim Pitner]

I have very little experience with Strantz courses--a redesign at Silver Creek Valley in San Jose is it.  

MPCC may well be a terrific course, but I'm not sure I understand all the gushing about this hole (not to take anything away from your ace, Mr. Huntley).  



The green looks pretty interesting . . . There is an ocean view (along with a busy road and quite a few homes) . . . I personally don't care for all the rocks . . . I'm certainly not saying it's a bad hole, but can someone enlighten me as to why it may be great.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

This is an example of why basing assessments on photos alone can only take one so far.

That pic is a very nice one, but:

1.  It flattens things considerably.  The back two tees for this hole are on a VERY cool rocky outcropping, such that the hole plays pretty downhill - not so much so that anyone would call it a dropshot, but enough.  And the result also is that you are perched at the high point of the golf course, with one darn spectacular view in front of you.  But the main thing is playing from a tiny tee perched in a rock outcropping is just very unique, fun and cool.  The pic obviously gives none of this.

2.  The pic also rather bunches things together too much and doesn't at all give one the VAST feeling one gets on that tee.  Those houses you seem to think are too numerous are pretty damn far away, and don't intrude at all.  That being said, it's also very cool staring at the golf course in the background given which course it is:  Cypress Point.

3.  The rocks aren't as intrusive at all as these pics make them seem.  In fact playing it yesterday I didn't notice them at all.  You are quite up above them from the back two tees.

So, as for playing the golf hole....

It is a lot tougher than perhaps the pic makes it look as well, because the wind is pretty tough to judge and one does get some sensory overload from the view.  Or at least I do.  It's tough to keep one's mind on the shot at hand with that view.  The green is also freakin' brilliant- sloping away a bit such that shots are propelled forward more than one tends to allow for... the bunkers on the right also is a bit shorter off the green than they look... the internal contours are brilliant as well.

Yes, I'd call this a great golf hole.  And the funny thing is, it's not even in the top 2 par threes on this golf course.  Each of #7 and 9 are better.... and 14 holds its own against this one also....

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Tim Pitner,

What you can't see in the picture is the wind. From an elevated tee to a very firm green when it's playing downwind is fun and tricky. The day I played there the wind was probably 25-gusting-30, more or less downwind on that hole although maybe a bit from the right. It was just thrilling to watch a mid-iron shot screaming downwind. I thought I had hit it just perfectly but it landed on the center-front of the green and went way over. Fairly easy chip back upbreeze from there although I did not get up and down for par.

That entire portion of the course looks shaped by the wind. There are those leaning trees and the drift of the hole mimics to the eye (in person at least) that same shape. Plus that tee box up on the rocks is pretty unique and cool. Very cozy up there.

Tom H,

I don't rank courses or usually proclaim one "better" than another. However, let me say this about MPCC Shore and Tobacco Road. Yes, you're correct that the Road is Strantzian to the max whereas the Shore is too subtle to really scream his name the first time you see it. So in one sense, I could make an argument that Tobacco Road is "better" in the sense of being more unique and bolder and all the other things that Mike Strantz is known for.

That said, given no constraints and ten rounds to play I'd play seven of the ten at MPCC Shore. Why? Because of the conditions. Firm and fast to the max. All-weather capability, not to mention the wind and proximity to the ocean. If I could ever play Tobacco Road with the greens and fairways in the same condition as they probably acheive 300 days/year at MPCC I'd probably start looking for a job in Sanford, NC tomorrow. But the Road play wetter, especially the greens.

Strantzian shaping is a good thing. Firm, dry, fast greens and aprons are a good thing. But put them together and they are just dynamite. Put them together in a 20mph+ breeze and they're nuclear. By that standard MPCC is a great, great place to play golf and the members are getting their money's worth from sand-capping the whole darned thing at the same time as they turned it over to Mike Strantz for reshaping.

And BTW, when I say all this remember that unlike some esteemed GCA'ers my hole-in-one came at Tobacco Road!

[peter_p]

It was done by an artist. The hole totally fits into its surroundings, yet doesn't look like it was imposed onto it.
I wasn't aware of some of its history, but its labour of love is evident. Your short iron had better be accurate or you have a difficult chance of making par.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent:  great stuff.  I can report that the Shore is most definitely still playing firm and fast - not screaming such like Wild Horse or some others - but firm and fast enough such that that is the standard of play needed.  It is VERY fun.  Combine that with the views, the feel, the fun shots... and you can see why I had to ask James why TR is "hands-down" better.  I guess it depends on what one means by "hands-down", but man I wouldn't call the course in the background of 11 "hands-down" better than MPCC Shore... so either TR is freakin' incredibly great in the line of being even better than said background course, or I am misunderstanding James.

 

[Jay Flemma]

Brent, what hole?  I'll guess 3?

[Tim Pitner]

Tom H and Brent,

Thanks for your descriptions of #11 at MPCC.  It does sound like a strong hole indeed.  

I'll have to admit to some anti-Monterrey bias.  

It's a beautiful part of the world, but I like my courses to be somewhat isolated and there's something about a glorified gated community that I just can't warm to.  

[Brad Klein]

Brent Hutto, I disgaree adamantly. I can not only see the wind in that photo; I can feel it.

Tom Huckaby, I'm nit picking on 17. Yes, 18 was certainly a let down, as was the walk back to the clubhouse -- the price to be paid for the range, I know. But 17 is obviously  a transition hole, back up into the woods, the reverse of the journey started by 1 & 2. I still thought 17 was a bit cramped, and it has hard to forget the creek since it's so obviously there. But mind you, this is nit picking, as MPCC-Shore is fantastic.

[Brent Hutto]

Brent, what hole?  I'll guess 3?

Actually, it was the sixth. Front right hole location, I was playing the up tees so it was semi-blind (could see the top half of the stick) over some of that tall grassy stuff in the waste area. Three-quarter swing with an 8-iron, when we got to the green I could tell from the ballmark it was going to be in the hole (even though Craig Disher went to look in the back bunker). If anything it was even sweeter not having seen it go in.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent Hutto, I disgaree adamantly. I can not only see the wind in that photo; I can feel it.

Tom Huckaby, I'm nit picking on 17. Yes, 18 was certainly a let down, as was the walk back to the clubhouse -- the price to be paid for the range, I know. But 17 is obviously  a transition hole, back up into the woods, the reverse of the journey started by 1 & 2. I still thought 17 was a bit cramped, and it has hard to forget the creek since it's so obviously there. But mind you, this is nit picking, as MPCC-Shore is fantastic.

Brad - that's cool.  I guess to me it's more of a testament to the strength of the other holes there than any sort of damnation anyway.  Because man 17 has grown on me... It is one of those odd holes that just sit there for you and look like not much, but the more you play it, the more you see and respect.

BTW my comment re the creek was not so much that you forget it's there at all, but that you forget or don't take into account how CLOSE it is at the green.  It's hidden in the woods and sure you can see it... but standing over an approach shot, it just doesn't look like it comes into play all that much.  But then you get to the green and see it's damn near attached to the fringe, with any ball going right being in deep doo-doo, and your respect grows.

[George Pazin]

If anything it was even sweeter not having seen it go in.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. I love blindness in golf, but there might not be anything sweeter in golf than seeing the ball drop in from way far away.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H and Brent,

Thanks for your descriptions of #11 at MPCC.  It does sound like a strong hole indeed.  

I'll have to admit to some anti-Monterrey bias.  

It's a beautiful part of the world, but I like my courses to be somewhat isolated and there's something about a glorified gated community that I just can't warm to.  

Oh, and I once had food-poisioning there and threw up all over Carmel . . . c'est la vie.  

Tim - no hassles man, we all have our preferences and biases.  

Interesting, I too prefer isolated courses - my #1 fave does remain Sand Hills and the incredible isolation is a big part of why I love it so much.  But somehow I also feel isolated and golf-only playing the courses inside the 17 Mile Drive... the views are pretty vast looking outward.  Oh, there are houses for sure, and it's nothing like Sand Hills or Ballyneal isolation... But it works for me.  The ocean and those views and that feel is inspiring for me.  But I am a sucker for the seashore also.

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