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Kevin Edwards

Besmirching Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« on: July 12, 2006, 02:50:05 PM »
I came across this review of Fishers Island on Top 100 Golf Course Blog..

http://top100golf.blogspot.com/2006/01/fishers-island-golf-club.html

This is a travesty in my opinion of poor research.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions and thinking a course is overrated but many things can not be defensed here.. A few comments (along with mine)

"Fisher's Island is supposed to be Raynor’s masterpiece. We would hate to see his other courses if this was his masterpiece. Masterpiece is meant to imply an outstanding piece of artistry. Not here. It is a failed masterpiece."

My comment:
Wow! FI a failed masterpiece, that takes a lot of chutzpah to say.  Given how that routing is perfectly in sync with the Island's shape, I can't believe the author labels it failed!  I guess Fred Olmsted who was involved with the project didnt know jack about artistry either--heavens that Central Park is an eyesore!

More comments from the author:

"We had heard rave reviews about Fishers Island, most people citing the views of the water from every hole. So, a water view is the mark of greatness alone? Not exactly. Even water views from every hole can’t save Fishers Island. Let’s admit it, not all water views are the same. Looking out at New London, Connecticut is not exactly the same as looking out on the Monterey Peninsula or the Irish Sea. Having worked with one of the great course designers of his time, Charles Blair MacDonald, Raynor should have done better. He should have stayed a municipal employee, laying pipe."

My comment:  Hey mate, that is really low telling us that Raynor who was one of the all time greats for golf architecture should have stayed a servant of the masses and laid pipe.. I can only insult you back via Macbeth, "Thy bones are marrowless, thy blood is cold!"

More drivel from the author:
"Apparently, Raynor’s idea of designing a golf course was to walk around and put in tees and greens without much else. While this can sometimes be the purest way to do a golf course as evidenced by many designers that did it properly, most famously Old Tom Morris, it does take some imagination and skill, which Raynor clearly did not possess. The first hole is ruler straight with little character. The second, an attempt at a Redan hole is weak. In the interest of fairness, we didn't hate the entire course. The next four holes including the “Punchbowl” and “Biarritz” holes are quite good and interesting. Then the course falls apart. No character, dull and repetitive.

We had heard rave reviews about Fishers Island, most people citing the views of the water from every hole. So, a water view is the mark of greatness alone? Not exactly. Even water views from every hole can’t save Fishers Island. Let’s admit it, not all water views are the same. Looking out at New London, Connecticut is not exactly the same as looking out on the Monterey Peninsula or the Irish Sea."


My comment:  So you like 3-5 at FI.. Get in line.. Dull and no character.. Do you have a pulse?  #7 with its wonderful vista and pond jutting in right where you want to land a drive, #9 with its double plateau green, the wonderful fortress green of the Knoll hole 10th, the best Eden hole outside of St. Andrews, the great two shot redan at #12.  13-15 may not be the be the finest holes at FI but they are solid ball striking requirements here.  I think 18 has a wonderful green and it terrific as a challenging par 4.

Last comment that made me question....

"Apparently, it wasn’t all his fault. He died half-way through construction and never let anyone know where he wanted his bunkers put in. So, they never put them in. The course was never really finished. Maybe it is because they are trying to show what frugal Yankees they are even though the members have a higher net worth per capitia than any course in the top 100. You’d think they could have paid someone to finish the course? It any event, maybe we were being unfair to Raynor who has been dead for many years. It’s not entirely his fault. The course is poorly maintained and run down. There seemed no excuse for letting the course get so run down. Poorly maintaining the course doesn’t add charm, as the members are trying to show how frugal they are. It makes it shitty. Do they think it makes it more like a links course in the U.K. by burning out the fairways? With an obviously different climate you can’t maintain a course in the eastern United States like one in England or Scotland. This course doesn’t deserve to be ranked in the top 100"

Okay- has this guy never heard of Charles Banks or does he think he was an amateur too.. The maintenance comments are a joke considering they have no irrrigation!!!!!!!!!!!!  This is so funny, I'll quote Shakespeare again...

"Methink'st thou art a general offence and every man shall beat thee"

Banks, Olmsted and Raynor deserve a lot better.  I'm afraid to see the inaccurate other top 100 reviews..




« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 07:30:21 AM by Kevin Edwards »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 02:58:47 PM »
Kevin,

Since this gentleman is a registered member of the Disscussion Group, I anxiously await his reply!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Kevin Edwards

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »
Peter Lavallee.. Great.. If he spends word for word with me, I shall make his wit (or lack therof) bankrupt!

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 03:01:09 PM »
Calling Bob Huntley!

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 03:12:20 PM »
Fishers Island is one of the great venues in all of golf.

At least this guy recognizes the greatness of 3-5. To think the ocean/water views by Monterey trump those looking out to the Atlantic on Fishers is naive.  I would not even expect that comment from Stevie Wonder. You can't see New London from the course anyway.

The rest of the comments especially those about Seth Raynor and the conditioning of Fishers Island are just laughable.

If Tom Pauls Big World theory is applicable then this is perhaps its greatest test.


Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 03:13:42 PM »
Its over the top, not worthy of reading.  Everyone has certain courses they feel are over rated but to say that the ratings are a sham and the course doesn't deserve a top 100 rating is ignorant.

I have always said that the course may not be the best course in the world but it is the nicest.  Give me a nice day and I would rather play Fishers rather than Cypress Point.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 03:22:14 PM »
Kevin,

Apparently you missed this thread, the very same Mr. Rigo's (somewhat rude) introduction to GCA.com, which included being dragged over the coals for his less-than-consensus opinions on courses you're not allowed to say less-than-glowing things about:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22992

Kevin Edwards

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 03:22:40 PM »
Does this look like there is no artistry! Not!


Kevin Edwards

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 03:31:36 PM »
Kevin,

Apparently you missed this thread, the very same Mr. Rigo's (somewhat rude) introduction to GCA.com, which included being dragged over the coals for his less-than-consensus opinions on courses you're not allowed to say less-than-glowing things about:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22992

Well well Scott are you in a Voltaire-esque way defending his right to be WRONG!

It doesnt change this fact about the reviewer:

Thou art a very superficial, ignorant, unweighting fellow (Measure for Measure)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 03:38:27 PM »
Kevin:

If you are ripping the guy for being wrong that a hole like #7 has no character and is just praised for the view, then citing "the vista" as a major reason it's a great hole is not a good counterpoint.

I certainly do not agree with all of his comments but some of them have merit ... neither of the first two holes is really that remarkable, for example.  

Nevertheless, to say the architect should have remained a pipe layer for the rest of his life is pretty indefensible.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2006, 03:43:35 PM »
As a person who's laid a lot of pipe in his life, I agree..... ;)

Kevin Edwards

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 03:43:48 PM »
Tom-

Thanks for your opinion.. I did say that #7 has architectual merit due to the fact that the pond encroaches on the right side right where the optimal angle is to the hole.   Also it often plays downhill but into the wind, a tough combo that Seth used to great effect in the routing..


Noel Freeman

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 03:50:16 PM »
Kevin:

If you are ripping the guy for being wrong that a hole like #7 has no character and is just praised for the view, then citing "the vista" as a major reason it's a great hole is not a good counterpoint.

I certainly do not agree with all of his comments but some of them have merit ... neither of the first two holes is really that remarkable, for example.  

Nevertheless, to say the architect should have remained a pipe layer for the rest of his life is pretty indefensible.


Tom-
re: Raynor's Start #1 at FI.. In my travels, there so are many first holes on terrific UK links courses--Portrush, Dornoch or even Deal that are not fully of eyecandy. The 1st at FI plays a good deal longer than it says on the card and I think is a perfect opening to the symphony that builds during the round.

As per #2 not the best redan I've played but still a solid golf hole.

I'd also like to sing in praise of Donnie Beck who does a tremendous maintenance job given he has no irrigation and a limited staff.  Considering the elements on what is essentially a small atoll where Ocean means Sound, he is a maestro.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 03:50:42 PM by Noel Freeman »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 03:59:49 PM »
All due respect to Mr. Rigo, but after hearing my grandparent's opinions on the place and seeing the pictures in the profile, I will be geting my reviews from Ran in the future. The place looks like it would be one of my favorite places to play golf. I would hate to see what is said about Camargo after that.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 04:01:05 PM by Glenn Spencer »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 04:20:13 PM »
This "slander" stuff is over the top. It smacks of demagoguery, with the extra added defect that nothing Rigo said was slanderous under any definition I know of.

Differing views should be welcomed and debated on their merits. It's good for the site. We all might even learn something in the process.

Bob  


michael_j_fay

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2006, 04:34:02 PM »
The blog is stupidity, the blogger a dope.

By the way what is it that is wrong with the # 7 hole?

Gib_Papazian

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2006, 05:20:20 PM »
Gentlemen,

Look, let's get down to brass tacks and cut out all this claptrap. The ultimate test of a golf course as a design achievement goes light years beyond the pseudo-intellectual exercise of picking apart individual holes.

I understand that (us) Golf Digest panelists "rate" courses using a series of categories and all of this is calculated into an aggregate number. This is based on an overall impression and not nitpicking #7 or #11 - the number is based on the entire track.

 Golf Week is (or was) just a matter of populating a field on an Excel download with an overall visceral rating. That stated -at least in theory - raters are (or were) asked to use a worksheet of sorts.  

Either way has validity. Sometimes the Doak Scale seems easist to understand for the untrained eye.

In many ways, I think Fishers Island defies numerical analysis and can best be summed up in what I have always called the "Mr. Scott Test."

Here is how it works, tell me if I am wrong:

It is a beautiful summer afternoon; after a light and delicious ceviche lunch, a shot of Hornitos, cold Tecate and a roll in the hay with a beautiful girl (I'll choose the Redhead of course), it is time for a round of golf.

You have a Star Trek Tricorder in your hand and Scotty awaits in the Transporter Bay on the Enterprise for your selection.

There is no access problems and in my rating hallucination, every golf course is empty. Fluff Cowan will be on the bag.

Your first choice of where Scotty is to beam you can safely be said #1. on your "rating list."

Fishers is in my top five. Since this is my list, I have appointed myself the ultimate arbiter of aesthetics, strategy and overall experience.

If Mr. Rigo disagrees with me, he is obviously an idiot and therefore disqualified from inclusion on the unofficial "Mr. Scott Rating Panel."

P.S. That I actually agree with Michael J. Fay is frankly astounding and cause for me to re-evaluate my entire paradigm. . . . . the very thought could send me back to psychotherapy.  
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 05:31:58 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2006, 06:10:51 PM »
And for all of you newbies, that is my friend, Gib "F-ing" Papazian!

Now we're talkin'! (All except the Golfweek stuff)


Gib_Papazian

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2006, 07:09:14 PM »
Emperor,

Nay! Think not that I besmurch your panel . . . . . I once marched under a different flag and think fondly of the many friends made during that era.

There is validity to nearly every rating theory - whether it be GW, GD, GM, Doak or even the lowly and obscure Mr. Scott coterie.

AP and UPI disagree with BCS and sometimes with each other. The beat goes on. We lost to Texas. I'll get over it. . . . . eventually. Someday. But not today.

I've no criticism of either or any rating panel. Ultimately - for better or worse - their complexion will eventually reflect the viewpoint and prejudices of its leader. Brad included. Maybe Brad especially. . . . .

But that does not make him wrong. It just makes him Brad.

I nearly fainted when I read Ron Whitten's article (read: diatribe) about my beloved Hoylake. There a places where I can see his point, but my overall opinion of Royal Liverpool is weighted hard to the positive side of the scale.

That is why he does not allow opinionated sots like me to force our autocratic proclamations on the rest of the panel. Tom Paul is right, there is a big world of golf out there and plenty of room for everybody.

Except that Rigo idiot.    

 ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 07:13:43 PM by Gib Papazian »

John Sabino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 09:18:46 PM »
Bring it on, boys!

For those posting comments that I've never been there, wrong again. In any event, the point of my review was that Fishers Island is over-rated in the world rankings. It doesn't deserve to be ranked where it is in the world. Many other courses have views that are far superior, Kingsbarns and Maidstone just to name two off the top of my head. And you have to admit, he did die before it was complete and there are a half dozen really weak holes?

In any event Kevin, I must thank you immensly, like the Catholic Church telling people not to go see The Passion of Christ, you have driven more people to my blog single handed than any other individual.

As for my comment on Raynor laying pipe, you need to appreciate a bad sense of humor when you see one.

In any event, Fishers Island is old news, if you want to read about a truly great golf course I have finally gotten around to writing up Sand Hills.

Joe
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2006, 10:03:35 PM »
Joe

Fishers Island will NEVER be old news so long as it remains intact.  It stands on its own merits as does Sand Hills. One has nothing to do with the other.

There are many great views in golf. Take a trip to the west coast of Ireland for some of the best although most would not be a "notch on your belt of Top 100 courses" so you probably won't be interested in wasting your time.  None of them along with Cypress Point, Maidstone, Eastward Ho or NGLA can take away from the absolutely unique venue, unique experience and unique golfing that is at Fishers Island. You totally miss the point of the game and its vastly variable venues with your silly statements.

Could you please document and critique six really weak holes at Fishers Island? Could you critique the routing of the golf course?

Have you played any other of Seth Raynor's golf courses and could you tell us a bit of what you think of them?

Would you like to be a guest speaker at the next Seth Raynor Society meetings this fall in Pittsburgh?  ;D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 10:11:06 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

John Sabino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2006, 10:14:38 PM »
Geoffrey - fair comments. I appreciate them rather than personal attacks. I am reserving judgement on Raynor as an architect until I play his other courses, but my first experience wasn't that good. After I play at least two more I would love to come and engage in a lively debate at the Raynor Society. The point of my blog, which apparently is missed on this site, is not to do a technical analysis and debate hole-by-hole the merits and fine points of architecture. As a non-architect, I have played a lot of golf all over the world on some very good courses. My point is, that Fishers Island has become over-hyped and over-rated. Like taste in women and movies, we don't all like the same thing. I didn't like Fishers Island. If that makes me an idiot, then so be it. But I'm not wrong. Joe
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2006, 10:26:26 PM »
Joe

Fair enough on your part.  I for one can't see how a day at the Fishers Island golf course would not be one of the great days in your golfing life.  There are just too many memorable and world class golf shots you must make over those 18 holes.

What IS the point of your BLOG?  
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 10:27:03 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

John Sabino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2006, 10:31:52 PM »
Geoffrey - to offer an honest opinion and have some fun. By the way I have played extensively on the West Coast of Ireland and enjoy it immensely - Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville, Traleee, Ballyliffin (up north), etc. Cheers. Joe
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

peter_p

Re:Slandering Seth Raynor's masterpiece
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2006, 10:40:04 PM »
Kevin,
Libelling is written, slandering is spoken.

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