[Jeff_Brauer]

On the Fun Factor thread, Tim Bert postulated that a hard hole every once in a while is essential to fun, and I agreed, adding it has to be the "right kind" of hard, preferably a memorably hard shot.

In that thread, I mentioned false fronts that allow you to "de-green a putt". Others I recall are narrow chutes of trees off the tees (remember, my first course was Medinah), and carrying a tree about 200 off the tee.  

What are some of your memorably hard shots?  I am looking for preferably of the fond memory variety, but I guess you can throw in the memorable for their bad quality shots, too (if you must!)

[Tom Huckaby]

Wouldn't this begin and end with #16 Cypress Point?

The tee shot there is wonderfully hard and very rewarding if one does find the green.

#13 Sand Hills has a bit of this going on also....

Tee shot on The Road Hole... extracting a ball from the Road bunker in one shot... banking one off the wall behind that green and getting it on the green...

I'll save some for others.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

tee-shot on 15 at Victoria National. I couldn't believe how tight it felt, but it was fair.

tee-shot on 2 at The Honors, I was paralyzed here for some reason. I also thought that 3 was a tough target for a par 3.

second to 5 and 15 at Bethpage

tee-shot on 8 at Crooked Stick

tee-shot and second on 15 at Wolf Run

1,2 at Moraine

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

3rd hole tee shot at Mauna Kea GC.  261 yds from the tips, all carry over the ocean.  Might be the hardest single shot I've ever had to attempt, but it sure is a memorable shot and breathtaking scenery.

http://linkscountryclub.com/linksccpc/images/SplashScreens/misc/mauna1.jpg

[Jeff_Brauer]

Gents,

I guess I would be looking for the quality or type of the shot that makes it memorable, not a specific hole.  

Tom,  I agree on CPC 16, but in your estimate, what % of memorability is in the scenery and what is in the carry? Specifically, if a gca were going to recreate the hole, with pond as the hazard, would it be as memorably difficult?

[john_stiles]

the 14th at Portrush Dunluce

[Mike Hendren]

I hit a very low push-fade.  I could stand on the tee at the 7th at Shinnecock and might put 1 in 25 balls on that green.  

I agree w/ redanman, but it is fun.

Mike

[Glenn Spencer]

Oh, for me then, the singles hardest shot I have ever faced was the tee-shot on 1 at Canterbury. I have no problem cutting the ball around something, but when it has to be a late cut, I have a real problem. The right side extends and that is where my ball will usually end up, as I have cut it too much or too soon. The 18th at Coldstream is similar, although not as immediate.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff -

One would be a fool to TRY and recreate #16 Cypress.  It can't be done.  Why?  Because hell yes, much of the greatness there is based on the scenery, the tradition, the fame, the feel.  We've all seen it hundreds of times in pictures and other media... actually playing it is just such a thrill, it's difficult to explain or understand unless you do play it.

That being said, it is a very difficult golf shot - 200 yards of carry generally into the wind slightly uphill in dead air all over water - yes, that's a tough shot.  But what makes it TOUGH in all caps are all the intangibles.  This is also part of what makes it great... that and the fact that the layup left is there for the taking....

Oh well, sorry to miss the gist of your question.

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

The 8th hole at Pebble Beach is a nerve wrecking shot on both the tee shot and the 2nd shot.

Ditto the first and second shots on Pine Valley #2.  

Ditto again the first and second shots on #10 at Shinnecock followed by an amzing par 3 #11.  

Jeff:
In thinking about this, do you think the memorable hard shots should come early or late in the round?

[Tom_U]

I think executing a difficult recovery shot to a difficult green tends to elicit the strongest and most fun memories. I specifically recall skulling a wedge long on #6 NGLA. I lobbed up a sand wedge from behind the green that juuuust got to the top of a large hump in the green and descended beautifully to the pin leaving a short tap-in for miraculous (for where I had been) 3.  I giggled like a little boy all the way from behind the green to the pin.  (One of the few one putts I had that day).

[Brian_Sleeman]

In general it seems a long forced carry over a dramatic hazard (ocean, alligators, sand dunes, trees, rock, etc) to an aesthetically tantalizing target qualifies - call it "the hero shot."  The period of time spent watching the ball drop back to earth while simultaneously recalculating its relationship to the hazard below is usually pretty memorable.

Bank shots of all sorts (up and over, over and back down, and lateral) are always fun and memorable as well, particularly if the ball disappears for a short while during its route - this adds an element of suspense akin to the hero shot.

Any time you're required (or given the strong encouragement) to use the ground game and visualize a combination of bumps, twists, and turns to reach an intended target, that's always the most thrilling for me.  It also usually is a longer-lasting shot, adding more to the suspense as you continually compare what the ball is doing to what you envisioned.

[Jordan Wall]

The second to the 18th at Kapalua

Short is death, yet it is almost impossible not to go for it--hey, you only live once--  The back bunker is a hard shot with about a ten foot lip and if you leave yourself above the hole then the putt is absolutely vicious.  Like I already said, short is death, but because your second will be from a downslope it is a bit harder to get the ball airborn, so getting it on the green from 270ish is not always the most probable things in the world.  
But pulling it off sure makes your heart skip a beat!!!!!

[Ron Farris]

Jeff,
Most shots are hard for me, but the second shot to #17 at The Old Course at St. Andrews is burned into my brain and perhaps the hardest, funnest, and most memorable hard shot that I have experienced.  

As a designer it is interesting to hear what people consider fun and hard.  I dated a girl once who was fun, but man she was hard to deal with.  That too is etched in my brain, but that is for another time. Hard and good are often confusing terms.  People hate the 2nd hole at my home course, an uphill  double dogleg(ish) hole, semi-blind second shot, to a small green with strong contours.  The girl I dated had strong contours but I didn't hate that.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The tee shot at the second at Richland County CC has baffled me for at least 30 years until this weekend.  I played a hard fade until I saw a young buck hit a high hook over and through the trees to a spot right in front of the green.  It is a play worth the risk given how impossible the right play even can be...as proven by the best result in my life after following this studs advice.  note: the stud won the tournament while I wilted to a sixth place finish.

Sorry if this does not reference a great course anyone would be proud to play...or even know someone who played...hmmm...I did manage to get a plug in for myself on my finish...so I guess you can be equally bored by that.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff:
In thinking about this, do you think the memorable hard shots should come early or late in the round?

Joel,

Good question, and I think they should be spaced out. I am not sure most courses really pay attention to the rythm of the holes like they should (mine included)

For example, do you follow up the really hard one with the birdie hole, or vice versa, or intersperse them with "average holes?"  Any could work, depending on the land and ops it provides, but I think spacing them out would work best, perhaps with 1, 5, 10, and 15 or thereabouts being easy holes and 4,8,12, and 16 (or therabouts) being hard ones.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Most of the drama in a "hard" shot is actually in the form of rugged scenery.

The sixth hole on the Stadium Course at PGA West is actually fairly closely modeled after the 16th at Cypress Point.  But, since it's a pond instead of the ocean, no one ever brings it up as one of the great holes in golf ... but they do bring it up as one of the hardest.

[Bob Jenkins]

Joel,

Definitely #16 at Cypress. No question about it, it is in a league of its own, except for maybe the approach at the Road Hole.

Others I recall would be the approach to The Alps, #17 at Prestwick, going for the green in 2 on #17 at Cherry Hills and the same on #18 at Capilano. Trying to hit #18 at Capilano in 2 not only involves a great drive to set it up but playing up on your second to a small green perched on a ledge down from the magnificent clubhouse. It is possible to hit above the green and to the right and hope it will kick down towards the green. Tough but very rewarding.

[rjsimper]

The 4th tee shot at Pacific Dunes from the Doak tees...

[Bob Jenkins]

Ryan,

You are absolutely correct on the 4th at Pacific. Had trouble even finding it. The 9th and 10th at Pebble are comparable.

[JeffTodd]

I'll nominate Pine Valley #5. Before playing there it was the shot I looked forward to hitting, above all others, because it struck me as the most demanding (and frankly, terrifying) of them all. When I finally played the course I managed to card a one-putt triple-bogey, my worst hole of the 18. But that triple was hardly the result of my worst shot of the day. In fact my tee ball was well stuck, only slightly pulled, and wound up going just long and left only to be lost in the ivy. Yet that is the appeal of the hole in my view. It's a do-or-die shot that demands excellent execution in order to score, one can't help but respect it and long to play it. I just hope to have another go at it with a better result next time.

[Garland Bayley]

Many of the memorable hard shots are not something an architect can create. Why? Because it is the unmemorable previous shot that creates the memorable hard shots, i.e. recovery shots. One in particular I remember was hitting a half driver off of a steep upslope through a small hole in the tree branches onto the green 150 yards away. Others are shaping recovery shots around trees, driving the ball into embankments to get them to pop up and finish in region it would never be possible to have the ball finish otherwise, etc.

The randomness of nature and the lay of the land make possible shot requirements that would not otherwise be present. Perhaps that is why many of us prefer the minimalist style.

[Matt_Cohn]

I think the presence of a bail out area makes these shots better. The psychology becomes "I'm choosing to take on this crazy shot" versus "The architect is making me hit this crazy shot and I wish I at least had a choice in the matter."

CP #16 and TOC #17 are certainly shots played by choice. There's a fairway in front of PV #5 although I don't know how much that counts.

What are the hardest shots without any bail out options? And does the bail out option make a difference in how satisfying it is to pull off the shot?

[Garland Bayley]

...
What are the hardest shots without any bail out options? ...

#17 TPC Sawgrass comes to mind.

[D_Malley]

2nd shot - hole 18 - merion east

i like the fact that you have the option of trying to fly it to the green or play a running shot that lands about 50 yards short and bounces in from the swale which fronts the green.  also an extremely hard green to hold.  and of course the history.

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