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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« on: July 01, 2006, 09:26:45 PM »
I was just looking at Neal Meagher's website, and there are a number of sketches that clearly demonstrate that Neal is quite a good artist.

I have some of Gil Hanse's drawings, and here too you can see the artistic skills demonstrated.

Question - does a golf course architect require art skills as part of his/her base compentancies?  If he/she is unskilled at art, does CAD fill the void?

This goes back to another basic question I'm still trying to get my arms around - how much GCA today is art versus science, and has the art/science ratio changed in the past 100 years.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 09:27:43 PM by Dan Herrmann »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2006, 09:32:56 PM »
I don't think the architect has to be a board artist, but he must possess spacial artistic skills.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2006, 09:43:35 PM »
I agree with Cary.  Put another way, how broadly does one define 'art' or 'artist'?  Certainly the need to be spacially creative and adept is v. important.  

In my opportunity to witness the emergence of Bandon Trails by CandC, I never saw a sketch or a plan....but I see the result, and it is v. good.

Tom
the pres

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2006, 09:48:46 PM »
Tom,
I wonder if C&C provided Mr. Keiser with "as builts".   ;D
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 10:00:58 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2006, 09:57:21 PM »
Dan;

That somehow really makes me laugh!

Thanks,
Tom
the pres

TEPaul

Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2006, 09:59:21 PM »
Bill Coore sure can draw, and I can prove it, but I'm not going to. ;)

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2006, 09:59:43 PM »
It is such a ludicrious idea that it is laughable!

Tom
the pres

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2006, 10:04:12 PM »
Dave Axland was kind enuf to sketch in the sand of the fourth hole two lines, illlustrating the opposing diagonals of that hole.

Tom
the pres

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2006, 10:37:27 PM »
Ron Prichard said "if you want to be a golf course architect, learn how to draw"

I have seen him draw stuff onsite. It is a great skill to have to convey ideas. A lot of people have a hard time visualizing things.

Jordan Wall

Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2006, 10:47:36 PM »
If I have to be a good artist I am screwed for life.  Dang.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2006, 10:48:39 PM »
Bill Coore is a remarkable artist.

That's all I'm saying about that!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2006, 01:45:36 AM »
Its not even so much that you can draw like an artist, you have to have the personality type of an artist, with a smidge of engineers mentality thrown in.

CAD does not fill the artistic void - you know computers, garbage in, garbage out.  It may help those who can draw computer contours but not visualize the scale, or more importantly, the details like vision of the plan.

We have on occaision used CAD to prove to an employee that his designs were a bit underscaled and underwhelming, by putting it into three dimensions on the computer.  (Of course, it would have been less time consuming had he just taken my word for it, but you know how aspiring golf designers are.........)

Jordan, if you are being serious there, you may really well be screwed.  We get a lot of kids looking for jobs, and most have buffed up their resumes and portfolios, redrafting them to look as good as possible.  Nonetheless, within six months any employer will know if you posess the artistry to be a golf designer, since you won't have the chance to buff up dailey work.  Even on resumes, there is a difference between what looks like a rendering copying a style, and a rendering that displays a true artist.

I hope your skill matches your passion for the craft.  You have to have at least some of both, and of course, the more the better.  That has been my experience anyway.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 01:47:16 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jordan Wall

Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2006, 09:48:30 AM »

Jordan, if you are being serious there, you may really well be screwed.  We get a lot of kids looking for jobs, and most have buffed up their resumes and portfolios, redrafting them to look as good as possible.  Nonetheless, within six months any employer will know if you posess the artistry to be a golf designer, since you won't have the chance to buff up dailey work.  Even on resumes, there is a difference between what looks like a rendering copying a style, and a rendering that displays a true artist.

I hope your skill matches your passion for the craft.  You have to have at least some of both, and of course, the more the better.  That has been my experience anyway.

I know.
I need to work on it.

wsmorrison

Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2006, 09:54:48 AM »
I was once daydreaming about becoming a golf course architect.  I asked Ron Prichard what was the first thing I should do if I was to embark on such a career.  His reply was to learn how to draw.  He is excellent at drawing and making things look 3D.  His bunker and greensite drawings are wonderful.

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2006, 10:24:27 AM »
Pete Dye is an artist, but has anyone seen his drawing ability?

Art is in the eye of the beholder.  Who wouldn't pay good money to have a crummy drawing by Mr. Dye? (No offense Pete!)

While working with Dye Designs we had an bonefide artist on staff, but I can tell you that it had little to do with getting the course built.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 10:33:07 AM »

Art is in the eye of the beholder.  Who wouldn't pay good money to have a crummy drawing by Mr. Dye?

I would, Ron  :)
jeffmingay.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2006, 10:41:41 AM »
I think one has to be a designer of function first, and if  good at this, the form will follow.

I think one has to be a designer of form first, and if good at this, the function will follow.

nah......one has to be good at combining form and function.

Should an artist be considered a designer of form?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 10:45:16 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2006, 12:14:35 PM »
I had the opportunity recently to spend quite a bit of time touring the new #7 course at St. Andrews with the lead onsite architect.  When I get time, I will do a full post on the visit which was quite informative and fascinating.  I will say a few things now, there were no detailed construction drawings or fancy sketches.  In fact, the architect will tell you that most of the the "artistic" work was done by the shapers.  The architects routed the holes and did some conceptual design, and then left it up to the shapers to have at it.  Below is the "drawing pad" if you will for what the architect used for doing his "drawings".  As you can tell it is just a box of sand!



By the way, the beer next to the box I'm sure helped with the inspiration  ;D



 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 12:17:28 PM by Mark_Fine »

Ryan Farrow

Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2006, 01:10:51 PM »
I believe Tom Doak said he hasn't drawn/sketched anything in years.

On the other hand you have architects like Mike Strantz who relied on his artistic ability.

I think one needs to have an eye for good design but does not need superb hand drawing ability to be a good designer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2006, 02:01:48 PM »
The key to being a good golf course architect is the ability to visualize and the ability to communicate your ideas to others.  You need to be a leader.  Some accomplish this through drawings, others through other means.

Drawing is a great ability, I wish I were better at it.  But at the end of the day it's a two-dimensional representation of what is crucially a three-dimensional product.  There are a lot of golf course designers who think well only in two dimensions, and their courses are not that interesting.  

Michael Whitaker

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Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2006, 02:25:35 PM »
Here are Jack Nicklaus, Donald O'Quinn, Charles Fraser, and Pete Dye "drawing" a hole at Harbour Town.

I like their sketchpad!



« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 02:26:03 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2006, 02:28:37 PM »
....

Drawing is a great ability, I wish I were better at it.  But at the end of the day it's a two-dimensional representation of what is crucially a three-dimensional product.  There are a lot of golf course designers who think well only in two dimensions, and their courses are not that interesting.  

TD, I think you may have hit the nail on the head.  Three dimensional thinking may be the ultimate key to successfull course design.  

Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2006, 04:14:01 PM »
I will second Tom Doak on this one.

The most important thing is to be able to communicate your ideas.  Drawing them on paper in 2D or 3D facilitates the communication with the clients.  So I would say that being an artist helps tremendously.  But its true it might not be absolutely neccessary if you can convince your clients that you have the right ideas.

Besides, drawings and your communications skills are sometimes all you have when you don't have a course or any work to your name.  

But remember, you have to convince the clients to hire you, over the other guys, before you even get to express any of your artistic skills...  So again, communication......
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2006, 10:25:26 PM »
I will second Tom Doak on this one.

The most important thing is to be able to communicate your ideas.  ......

Its also pretty important to have good ideas to communicate!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Must a golf course architect be a good artist?
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2006, 11:17:34 PM »
Dan, thanks for mentioning Neal Meagher's website.  Neal's drawings are really effective in showing what he wants to achieve on the ground.  My first GCA experience was meeting Gib Papazian, Jeff Stettner and Neal at Poplar Creek in San Mateo.  After the round, Gib and Neal and I sat around in the grillroom for a couple of hours, talking about various courses and holes.  Neal sketched out some of his ideas on a paper placemat, with almost 3D renderings of bunker faces and green sites.  I wish I'd kept that drawing, it should be very valuable one of these days!