[PThomas]

Geoff Shackelfords' site has a link to Tim Rosaforte's article which says there will be a complete Tom Fazio restoration of the east course

anyone know anthing about this?

[ChipRoyce]

Since when has the Faz been an expert in Tillinghast restoration?

Other members of the Tillie Society - please jump in here!?!?!

[Craig Van Egmond]

I wasn't aware that Fazio did restorations.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tommy Nacc has given his full blessing to the work on WF West.

Who is not happy with the work that Tom Marzolf has done on The West? Read the article and find one thing to pick on.
http://www.mgagolf.org/intraclub/query/catquery.html?doc_number=5875

Recently restored by Tom Fazio Merion Golf Club will next week announce the US Open in 2013.

If you have money, and you have major championship pedigree, why wouldn't you hire Tom Fazio?

[corey miller]

I would not get caught up in the restoration/renovation phrasing, the fact is most of the architects are going to do and say whatever the club wants to get the job.  to the extent restoration means (old style look), that is a good thing.

For better or worse, WF has been the club others in the area have looked to for guidance.  "build us Winged Foot bunkers".  This "style" became synonomous with Tillie and often requested in the area.

Ken Dye had quite a business building his version of Tillinghast and Winged Foot all over the area (westchester,ardsley,rock spring, old oaks).  Did it rally matter what these were called?

Things were starting to look a little better in the area with Hanse, Forse, C&C getting some jobs for restoration type work.  

Not sure what all this will mean now that Fazio is working at WF and Stanwich.  I am sure the work will be described in whatever way Mr. Fazio thinks will continue to get him more work.  

[Noel Freeman]

I don't recall Tommy telling me he was giving the place the high sign but I could be wrong.. I really would like to know what Neil Regan thinks.. I also believe WF's super deserves a lot of credit for things done right there. Some of the new tees I've heard (and not seen) look out of place.

Tis a bit dissapointing to me though that from what I've heard some of the East's greens (4 of them) will become new USGA greens and softened.. I think #3 on the East (the great little par 3) is one of them..

Corey is very correct though.  Archies will do what members want for the most part. I sat next to Jim Nagel and Ron Forse at dinner the other night as Alpine was getting the MGA club of the year award. Our new greens chair wants to add fairway bunkering in spots to a course where Tillinghast had none on his design sheet (subsequently fairway bunkers have been added on two holes by Brian Silva in the early 90s).  I know Ron doesnt advocate putting them in, nor do I but what do you do when the club hierarchy wants them?!

[Geoffrey Childs]

We visited #8 east recently and were greated by Jeff Portius (spelling?) who is the shaper on the project.  Jeff did all the work at Fenway (with Hanse) and Essex (with Bahto), two widely acclaimned projects and the work at Alpine CC (with Forse) that was just completed.

#8 East bunkering looks OUTSTANDING. Jeff spends huge amouts of time getting every little detail from capes and bays to drainage patterns just right and the results show. #8 green on the east is one of the wildest on the whole 36 hole complex and the new one looks to be just like the old one but for an 8% ridge softened to 5% and additional reclaimed space for new pins. I learned as much solid practical golf course architecture talking with Jeff about the project for 30 minutes then I have in any similar time frame previously.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tommy Nacc has given his full blessing to the work on WF West.

Who is not happy with the work that Tom Marzolf has done on The West? Read the article and find one thing to pick on.
http://www.mgagolf.org/intraclub/query/catquery.html?doc_number=5875

Recently restored by Tom Fazio Merion Golf Club will next week announce the US Open in 2013.

If you have money, and you have major championship pedigree, why wouldn't you hire Tom Fazio?

Mike- I'm not a real fan of the new tees on WFW.  They look sadly out of character.  There is one thing to pick on.  Otherwise, its great but the club is very lucky to have its collection of old data and photos in the archives and at least one member who is totally dedicated to its history  

[Noel Freeman]

Jeff Porteus and Hawk Shaw golf are the best! Jeff is responsible for a bit of archeology at Alpine's 7th.. He dug and dug and found Tillie's lost bunkers from the 1930s.. they disappeared sometime in the depression and were replaced twice and not well.  They are terrific now.

[Mike_Cirba]

Has any bunker work been done on the West Course in recent years?  If so, who was the shaper?

[Ryan Farrow]

Fazio's team will do a good job if the golf club wants a real restoration. I don't think you can blame fazio when clubs like Augusta want changes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Has any bunker work been done on the West Course in recent years?  If so, who was the shaper?

I'm beginning to believe that the shaper is at least as important than the architect.  

I ask the question I did above because from the pics I've seen of the West Course bunkers, they look to be really well done.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Nacc has given his full blessing to the work on WF West.

That's true.

Who is not happy with the work that Tom Marzolf has done on The West?

I had some issues with the work.
Tommy Naccarato and I discussed and debated some of the
fairway bunker work.  # 5 and # 12 come to mind immediately.

Read the article and find one thing to pick on.
http://www.mgagolf.org/intraclub/query/catquery.html?doc_number=5875

Recently restored by Tom Fazio Merion Golf Club will next week announce the US Open in 2013.

If you have money, and you have major championship pedigree, why wouldn't you hire Tom Fazio?

It depends on whether or not you want to preserve, as closely as possible, the design integrity of the original architect/course, eliminating all possibilities of modern interpretations, interpolations and creative ideas in the design and execution of the work.

However, in the ultimate,  The Sentinel is the Club or it's designated chairman/watchdog.

They bear the responsibility for preserving and protecting the design integrity of the golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fazio's team will do a good job if the golf club wants a real restoration. I don't think you can blame fazio when clubs like Augusta want changes.

You can the architect, any architect, especially when they depart from and/or destroy the design integrity of the golf course.

But, the club remains an unindicted co-conspirator  

[SPDB]

You can the architect, any architect, especially when they depart from and/or destroy the design integrity of the golf course.

Patrick - What if preserving the design integrity of the golf course is outside the scope of the architect's employment?

Blame?

[PThomas]

I wonder how often "name" architects turn down jobs because a  membership wants them to alter a course in a fashion that is not in keeping with the course's original design

[SPDB]

Paul T. -
I might be remembering incorrectly, but an example is C&C at Riviera

[Patrick_Mucci]

You can the architect, any architect, especially when they depart from and/or destroy the design integrity of the golf course.

Patrick - What if preserving the design integrity of the golf course is outside the scope of the architect's employment?

Blame?

SPDB,

I"ve stated that the ULTIMATE CURATOR, the protecter and preservationist is the CLUB.

An architect is often the instrument to implement their thinking.

Many clubs retain an architect and don't have a game plan in mind.  While they still bear the ultimate responsibility, the architect, given a free hand, also bears responsibility for his work, and its departure from what existed previously or originally.

An interesting study is to look at all of the alterations done to clubs over the years.

To examine the disfigurations that are now being undone in favor of restorations.

You have to ask yourself, "Why did those clubs embark upon those alterations in the first place ?"

Trends, personal agendas, keeping up with the Jones's and egos seem to be the primary culprits.

P.S.   I still owe you dinner.  Maybe I'll get you off my owesy
         list this summer

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm a little surprised and would love to know the rational for restoring WF East.  I played the course a few years ago and liked it more than the West.

As for Fazio, the guy is amazing.   I heard a few years ago he told a group that he and his uncle George decided many years ago they wouldn't do restorations.   Now I heard from another source that he was so jealous of Rees Jones getting publicity for being the "Open Doctor" that he is going after certain high profile jobs free of charge.   He didn't charge anything at Oakmont which is one of the main reasons Oakmont hired him.  I played with an Oakmont member the other day who said they (Oakmont) outlined every line for bunkers, tees and greens and kept Marzolf on the shortest possible stick.   Essentially the Fazio group did the labor but had no design input.

[SPDB]

Joel - I'd check your sources on Fazio. Attributing to him the zeal of Marzolf might be a little unfair.

Patrick -

I think we agree. However, I tend to place more responsibility with the Club, in terms of sourcing and researching architects, defining the scope of the job and monitoring it as it goes a long. You obviously have infinitely more experience and familiarity with such matters than I do, but I think a good approach is to have the architect do one or two holes and assess that before moving forward with wholesale work.  It worked great at Yeamans, but then again they were dealing with Doak.

As for dinner, I hope we can do it this summer as well, but on 2 conditions:
1. It has to come after July 27th when I finish the bar exams, and
2. It has to come after a round of golf.

Deal?

Hope you're well and enjoying late spring/early summer.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Deal.

However, I strongly disagree with you with respect to altering a course in experimental stages, especially over more than one year.

What would happen if the two experimental holes came out bad ?

Would you get another architect and have him do two trial holes ?

And, what if you're not pleased with that outcome ?

Doing a golf club in stages is more expensive and brings with it a host of problems.   I don't recommend that process for anyone.

The best bet is to have a sound concept, do MacWood like research, interview viable candidates and select an architect who will be intimately involved with the project, and do it in one fell swoop.

[Tom_Doak]

SPDB:  Bel Air Country Club tried that "audition" method with George Fazio in the mid 1970's ... have you ever seen that mess?  Maybe a club feels more comfortable dipping its toe in the water first, or maybe they should just dig deeper and make sure they're getting the right guy before they do anything.

Ryan:  I don't think you can blame Tom Fazio when a club like Augusta wants changes, either, although he could give up the job if he felt strongly they were doing the wrong thing.  However, if they really just want to RESTORE Winged Foot East (which is the premise of this thread), what makes you so certain Fazio is the right guy?  Can you name one true restoration which he's done well?  Have you seen the eighth green at Riviera?

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom, I have always felt that it is up to the architect to walk away from a classic course if they proposed changes like they did at Augusta. I’m sure money and mainly publicity was the deciding factor.

As for a successful restoration I may be a bit biased but I have spent almost every day for the last 3 weeks at Oakmont. Marzlof obviously did an incredible job. I never saw the course in person until a few weeks ago but from pictures on the mid 90's the course is almost unrecognizable in a good way. I know the Fazio team did not start the tree removal process but that is not the only thing that was done right.

They restored green shapes to open up pin positions from past US Opens. Re-discovered old church pews, re-did and added pews to the infamous bunker between 3 and 4, and the tenches have been re-done and really stand out. There are two more trees on the course that I feel need to be chopped down. Why does one tree stand between 3 & 4. Does anyone know?


I’m not saying Fazio is the best choice out there but not all of their work is destructive.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:  I have not seen Oakmont in many years, so I am pleased to hear that the restoration went well.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ryan,
In my opinion, I think Tom Marzloff is a complete baboon of an idiot who has little in knowledge what GREAT classic golf architecture is even about. He is nothing more then a hanger-on to the name which has afforded him entry to the great clubs in America which is has been destroying.

Mike Sweeney,
I wouldn't say I was totally impressed with the work at Winged Foot, in fact, I think I was more blinded by just being there. My first visit was a surprise visit which was immediately preceeding a round at Yale which you were witness too. That's a lot of golf architecture to take in one day, let alone one round.

I was completely impressed by those masterful greens, as well s the mass tree removal that I had come to know of from pictures in magazines and television. But when I hear of Fazio and Marzloff doing work on certain greens of the East course, well, I throw-up cause for alarm. In fact It makes me want to just throw-up period.

But in all of this, it is all incited by the news of an even more impending doom of one of the finest golf holes in America: Riviera #10, which I heard this very week is being altered by some idiot named Marzloff.  It is my understanding he isn't just redoing bunkers, he's moving them also.

Mike,
Frankly, As much as I love the golf on both the East and the West courses, I don't give a thumbs-up at Winged Foot for the work that is currently being done there, especially after seeing some of the newer tee work like on #3. Answer me this: Just how hard is it to F-up a tee? He pushed it back and made it an aircraft carrier, all while not even paying attention to how the base of the tees look compared to the other masterfully shaped tees out there? (It looks more like a Seth Raynor green then it does a tee for one of the hardest par 3's in America.)

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