[Jay Flemma]

Where's Huckaby?  He'd love this place.  Minimalist and really inexpensive.  I just reviewed it and put up pix on my website.

Matt ward, I luv ya most of the time, but this time I disagree, I liked it.  1,2 and 18 were average, but the front explores a nice lakeside property while the back tumbles up and down sevrely unduating landscape.  12 is jusy phenonenal.  Great wind course.

From my article:

Kay is also a minimalist. Indeed LND embraces minimalism to such a degree, it feels like a throwback to the way was played many decades ago. Colorless rocks are used for tee markers with only bare wooden posts marked “one” through “five” to indicate the player’s teebox. Fences are mesh wire and dirt trails serve as cart paths. Port-a-potties are done over as wooden stalls (Stay calm…that’s the outside only! The inside is a modern convenience.) In keeping with the old-time spirit of minimalism, the course is an easy walk. The course’s rustic old world feel reminds some of Kelly Blake Moran’s work at Lederach in Pennsylvania, particularly the greens and their hurly burly contours.

Just like the great seaside courses of the UK and Ireland, LND has three primary defenses; the blustering west and northwest winds, the severe green contours and the undulating fairways which frequently present uneven lies.

The wind makes a joke of the listed yardages everywhere, but nowhere is the discrepancy more prevalent then on the par-3s. As a result, all four par-3s all test distance control. The short third plays severely downwind to a shallow green fronted by bunkers. Eight, while only one club longer on the card, plays severely into the wind and is fronted by a deep brush filled chasm and a savage, sod-faced bunker. Seventeen, while 184 on the card, plays two to three clubs downhill. Only the mid-iron11th is sheltered from the wind as it sits in a sheltered bowl. A bunker reminiscent in size, shape and location to the famed “Devils Asshole” at Pine Valley guards right hole locations. This hole also features a great hump in the green and other severe contours making it the most sevre green of the par threes.

The front nine plays out to the lake for the first two holes, then tacks inland to the best holes on the front, the short, downwind, reachable par-5 fourth and the long par-4 fifth which tacks back to the lake before finishing at a picture window green set at the edge of the bluff overlooking the water. The excellent long par-4 sixth plays along the bluff with the lake along the left side and a serene grassy meadow along the right.

The back features one terrific hole after another. The best hole on the course is 12, a murderously long par-4 (473/438/410) into the teeth of the prevailing west wind. The fairway slopes so severely right to left, everything kicks down a huge ridge to the left side. If you find a flat lie, please point it out so people can take a picture for posterity. Once on the green, the adventure continues as the green appears to be draped over the top of a hippopotamus with a gland problem.

Interesting factoid:  the routing of the back is bilaterally and superficially symmetrical - 5,3,4,4,4,4,4,3,5,.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm here!

Sounds really cool to me.  Great review, both here and on the web site.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Would you really make the trek to Ray, ND to play the course?

Second question -- do you really believe it deserves to be rated among the top 100 modern courses as Golfweek does?

Last question -- can you itemize for me how the first six holes are anything but pedestrian? Also, the green contours and detailing around the green sites -- where is it done on such a high level.

Jay -- I enjoy your comments generally -- but you have come down with a bad case of Sand Hills-itis (the disease that afflicts golfers who give more points to isolated courses than they actually deserve.

P.S. I use the term Sand Hills because while that rightly deserves all the plaudits it receives there are any number of others who think they can glom on to the pattern.

P.S. Plus -- If you are looking for out-of-the-way golf adventures then try western Colorado or Utah -- with such layouts as Lakota Canyon, Devil's Thumb and The Hideout respectively, to name just three.

[Garland Bayley]

I think the wind must have been blowing the opposite direction of its prevailing direction when you played there. 4 should be into the west wind, 5 with it, etc.
The wind you describe is certainly the opposite of when I played there.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't know about land ownership at LND, but perhaps if the golf shop and RV park had been put on the lake front, then perhaps it would have garnered a bigger set of clientele, and been a success. Then they could have made Jay happier, because the 18th would have had to return to the lake. Myself, I have no problem with the 18th and liked it. At least for me, it made me consider  options on every shot more than most golf holes do.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Matt,
Number 2... pedestrian? It's a great short par 4. The cross bunkers dictate the line of play off the tee wonderfully, especially on hole that asks the golfer to think about club selection. The green sits at an ideal angle for the aggressive line off the tee and has excellent bunkering. Even the internal contouring works.

I like the golf course a lot. Put the course in the context of when it was built, well before most of the "nowhereland" courses that exist now and it really succeeded at its goals.

I did think 17 and 18 were weak, however.  

[Jay Flemma]

Hiya Huck.  Thanks for the props.  This place seems right up your alley.

Matt:  I'd make the trek if I was in ND for a fourday to week stint and not with my girlfriend.  Williston way too rural for me (and her...she'd cuncuss me with my four iron if I pulled into Hell rancho...I mean El Rancho for a nights stay.  Cinder block walls are just not me and "trapper's Kettle" ranks right down there with "Iron Skillet" for worst food ever.

as for the first six, he's right, 2 is very interesting if a a bit too short of a carry, but 3 tests distance control well.  4 maybe we've seen alot, but 5 is a string hole and six plays along the blufs.  Whats wrong with that? Very pleasant.

Williston doesn't move right with my city slickerness, but if I had a week, yeah...I really enjoyed it...its a 5-5.5, not a 6 or seven, but its a good course for some architectural study and low impact, high fun.  Bully Pulpit is a DROP better on the whole and Medora has wayyyyyyyyyy more to do and is light years nicer with good food and horseback riding.

As for "sand hills-itis"...I didnt rate it high cause its remote, but as for the REAL sand hills or the NC sand hills, call the doctor, I'll need a vaccine...I'm at serious risk of infection!

Garland, when were you there? MIght have it been off season? The wind I had was consistent with the kisted prevail and the prevail explained to me by Mitch the head pro.

[Garland Bayley]

I was there June 30th last year. Look at the map of the course. The lake is to the south, the 18th is to the north. With prevailing westerlies, the 18th would play downwind. That would mean the 4th would play into the wind, and the 5th would play downwind.

[Jay Flemma]

Not sure...I was just there and discussing the minutiae with Mitch.  He said we had the prevail and we discussed the right direx...

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

I too thought 2 was a very good hole. I don't know why Matt pans it.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I love the phrase -- "put the course in context when it was built." You may want to do that -- I simply reviewed the course and went from there.

For the sake of argument I'll concede the 2nd hole (I'm being nice now!). Please knock yourself out regarding the other five holes in the first six. There is nothing there on those holes one can remotely associate with the word memorable or would make someone say, "wow what a golf course."

By the way if you believe the 2nd is better than the 17th hole then you and I are as far apart as Jersey is from North Dakota.

Jay:

I love the phrase "very pleasant" but that doesn't make the first six holes on par with what I mentioned as a counterpoint were with such courses in western Colorado or Utah, to mention just two locales that aren't near civilization.

The green details are merely pedestrian type stuff. No doubt the overall scenery and remoteness does play with people's minds and I believe there is a tendency to bump up such courses because of that. You must have had access to some really good Indian paote!

Links of ND is solid for ND golf but when people elevate it to top 100 modern level and I can easily name no less than a dozen courses that could replace it faster than a NY minute.

Gents:

One last thing -- can anyone of you tell me if you liked Hawktree or Links of ND better and what the rationale is? Thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

Actually #4 is kind of cool the way it gradually reveals itself as you go up the ravine.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here we go again.... Matt Ward comparing any course someone likes to a HOST of Jim Engh courses. I just had to point this example out. Thanks Matt. In the case of LOND, it doesn't compare to Hawktree (Engh) or Lakota. (Engh Again)

Are you a broken record?

Did someone operate on your brain where the only thing you can say is pardner, cognescti, pulllehzzze, as well as Lakota, Hawk Tree, Black Rock, and Engh?

[Jay Flemma]

I'll agree none of the 3 in ND matches Lakota...but that's because Lakota is rock solid 1-18 and the others have a chink in the armor...but the price factor ($40-$50) is a steal.

Comparing the 3 in N. Dakota to each other?  Do you like NY strip or ribeye or porterhouse?  Its a matter of taste.  All three are really good and different form each other.

I'll review Bully and Hawktree this week and leave it to the individual reader...they are all close and I think the fact we can debate to the cows come home which one is best is a good thing.

But I agree...Lakota and BM and even redlands are stronger 1-18.  but hey Bully and LND feel minimalist...maybe others might disagree.  The point is we are all making lucid points with great merit.  Its a great thread by all YOU GUYS in that regard.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Glad you can join a thread in which you are totally clueless.

If you have something to offer from having played both courses please knock yourself out and provide your insightful commentary. If not -- pipe down.

Hawktree is mentioned by me because it's rated as the best public course in ND --  by the national pubs -- I simply wanted to see if others had played it and how they would compare / contrast the two layouts.

When you speak of a broken record -- look in the mirror for a better view.

[Garland Bayley]

Oh, I get it. Tommy and Matt are buds. They are just putting on this act for our benefit here on GCA.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Garland,
Exactly....

[Tim Pitner]

Matt and Jay,

I don't understand why you are comparing Links of North Dakota to Lakota Canyon.  They seem completely different--LND is a faux links; Lakota is a cartball, mountain course.  Other than the fact they're both west of the Mississippi River and east of the Sierras, it doesn't seem like they have much in common.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim, et al:

I never mentioned Lakota to Links of ND for comparison. I said -- once again follow what I say -- how does Links of ND compare / contrast with Hawktree -- also in ND and rated the #1 public course there.

I would be interested to see the comments from those who have played Bully Pulpit in Medora.

In my mind -- Hawktree is #1, Bully Pulpit #2 and Links of ND a distant #3.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Okay Matt, I'll bite. I was a writer in a former life and I would be honored that my phrase live on. Feel free to use it...

I asked that the course be put in the context on when it was built for a number off reasons. You have been to Williston. You know how awful hard it is to get there. When the course was first opened, it was, in my book, a clear top 100 modern layout. If you look at the rankings these days you will see a lot of really new courses. The standard has been raised across the whole country. Would this course receive the same scores now that it did when it forst opened? I am not sure. It's location ensures, however, that few raters would ever revisit the course. In my mind, it's still a top 100. There are few better walks in the park.

As for Hawktree, it's not even close in my book, but I haven't really loved an Engh course (and I've played four). The greens, especially the punchbowls, are far too obvious and the bunker work is so redundant that I lose interest. I had no idea that there were so many snakes in North Dakota. I will say this... I always have fun on Engh courses, more than I can often say.

Of course, this is all semantics. When I played the Links of North Dakota my father and I had the entire course to ourselves and I remeber the day like it was yesterday (not the shots I hit, just the feelings I had). Those memories are worth way more than rankings.    

[Dan Kelly]

When I played the Links of North Dakota my father and I had the entire course to ourselves and I remeber the day like it was yesterday (not the shots I hit, just the feelings I had). Those memories are worth way more than rankings.    

Jeff --

I haven't played any of the courses in question -- but am quite certain you've got this right.

What is this insane fixation some people have with rankings? The longer I've been hanging around this Web site, the less I understand it.

Another writer in a former life,

Dan

[Jay Flemma]

Dear Tommy and Tim,

As you both know I try to be fair and even with everybody and evaluate things on their merit.  On this note, this occasion I have to agree with Matt Ward on the issue of comparing with Lakota.  Here's why.

I played a lot of public courses last year.  Of the new publics I played last year, I picked Lakota for best new.  I hadn''t seen BUlly, but I saw it this year.  I used Lakota for a comparison for two reasons...one my book to see what courses will get whole chapters and which will get a page mention...two because as my pick for last years best, it gives me a measuring stick.

The three ND courses are really close and your thoughts (and please keep telling me how you rank the 3) are important for me to consider.  While I disagree with Matt on LND, for the reasons I stated above - I picked Lakota and other courses over BP and LND and Hawktree.  When Matt's right I'll agree, when I feel he's wrong I wont.

I also have to use my little seven star system for evaluation, so comparing to ither courses I know well, I can keep an eye on the bigger picture.

Please let me know how YOU all feel of the rank of the 3...maybe you'll change my mind..its open.  Of the 3, BP had the most lines of charm, but had a couple head scratchers and uninspiring holes too (1, 18).  Right now BP has the lead.

[Garland Bayley]

Hey, I liked BP 18. I thought that green was terrific. What would you call it? A reverse cape where the fairway on 3 sides is what the cape extends out into? Kind of takes the ground game out of the question, but that is ok if not overdone.

I haven't played Hawktree, but I give BP a slight edge over LND. The center hazards and wide fairways allowing you to choose your route is main reason. The LND has the varying terrain that makes it special. BP does have a schizo personality with three holes of wild terrain and 15 holes of mild terrain.

[Andy Hughes]

As for Hawktree, it's not even close in my book, but I haven't really loved an Engh course (and I've played four). The greens, especially the punchbowls, are far too obvious and the bunker work is so redundant that I lose interest. I had no idea that there were so many snakes in North Dakota. I will say this... I always have fun on Engh courses, more than I can often say.

Jeff, I found this interesting. Not to pick any nits, but if you often have more fun that you can say on an Engh course, why have you never loved one? I've never played an Engh course--what is it that makes them fun but not the kind you fall in love with?

[Jeff_Stettner]

Andy,
On the 18th hole at Fossil Trace I hit driver-pitching wedge. It's a par 5. While I enjoyed myself, I do not consider that hole a great hole, nor do I consider the Engh courses that I have played to be great. It's hard to explain (while writing my last post I added in the fun comment because I felt a need not to shortchange Engh designs), but I will try and give an analogy.
My wife and I love movies. The other day, we watched Garden State. I finished the film with a big smile, as I had laughed, identified with characters and appreciated the love story. The film is also flawed, with forced dialog, too many dog jokes and some plot gaps. While I had fun watching the film, I wouldn't call it great.
To love a golf course, I have to want to walk from the 18th green back to the first tee. If a golf course is too hard, I go to the car. Same deal if the course is too easy. I want to have fun and feel challenged and have to think about angles and putting. I want hazards to be daunting and I want recovery to be 50% skill and 50% luck.
The Engh courses that I have played, Hawktree, Fossil Trace, Red Hawk Ridge and Columbia Point have all been fun but have all lacked other elements that would insipre the trip from the 18th green to the first tee.
I hope that helps...

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