Reverse Biarritz

« **on:** May 15, 2006, 02:25:20 PM »

After reading the Macdonald/Raynor thread about the various takes on the Biarritz, I got to thinking.

Are there any "Reverse Biarritz" holes that come to mind? By that, I am thinking about a large green with a huge speed bump in the middle that repels weakly struck shots, and propels those shots that hit the back downslope off of the green? The top of the bump could be pinable, but not the preferred back position which would be the toughest to access. The front pin position could use its side of the mound as a back stop.

While the swale at the front of the first green at Pine Valley is too close to the front for my thinking here, and not nearly as pronounced, the severe drop offs to the back and sides are what I am thinking about in placing a 2-3 foot high speed bump in the middle of the green. A long putt on such a green would demand touch and imagination.

Flip the Biarritz upside down to create a "Reverse Biarritz."

Any merit to designing a green in such a manner?

JWK

« **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2006, 02:26:37 PM »

I can't recall for certain, but doesn't #7 at SFGC come close to that?

« **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2006, 02:41:24 PM »

Spyglass Hill #4 comes close, with the elephant buried in the middle of the green.

« **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2006, 05:37:32 PM »

I've built a true [if one can be called that] reverse biarittz for a yet to open 9 hole course in Verdi, Nevada....actually it opened briefly but sustained flood damage and I still haven't heard when it will re open.
Haven't played it yet, but it was a very interesting hole during construction and one of my favorite holes of those that I have never played

.

« **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2006, 06:35:26 PM »

James W:

I don't think I've ever seen such a thing on a biarritze type green but the concept makes perfect sense to me.

My golf course has a green (a long par 3) with what could certainly be labeled a huge "speed bump" right across the front. Recently it was not green space but after our recent restoration it is now.

That feature is just fascinating to me. When the ground is firm you almost must play the ball short of the green and run it over that huge roll or speed bump. If you fly it past it when the ground is firm the ball will generally go off the back of this really large green that sort of runs away slightly. And if the ground is soft you must fly the ball over it because if you land it short of it the ball will stop dead and playing a second shot over the roll is pretty tricky particularly to a frontish pin.

I think that single feature just completely makes this particular hole on my course (#17) which happens to be the biggest green on the golf course. It's precisely the same concept you mention but the "speed bump" is on the very front, not in the middle like a "reverse biarritz".

« **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2006, 08:33:47 PM »

The 12th hole at the Walker Course at Clemson is exactly this. 178 from the tips, 160 from the members tees, the green is relatively narrow and very deep, with a huge hump right in the middle and running all the way across. I'd guess the overall depth of the green at around 25 yds., and the hump is probably on the order of 2 feet high or so. I wouldn't want to guess as to the width of the plateau of the hump, but it is easily big enough for pin positions. (Michael Whitaker may have a picture of this green; VERY unusual green, but it works, I think.)

Architect is D.J. DeVictor.

« **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2006, 08:40:59 PM »

Jim Keever:

The 15th green at Piping Rock Club (Macdonald/Raynor) has a snaky mound running across the green from left to right which is one of the coolest greens to putt that I've ever played on. The ridge is not nearly as high as the Biarritz is deep, but it proves that's not necessary.

The hole is a dogleg par-4 with a very uphill second shot, and you just have to know whether the hole is in front or in back and make sure you get to the right half of the green.

I've seen this in other places but never executed as well. We built a ridge across about 2/3 of the 17th green at The Rawls Course, but it's not nearly as cool as the one at Piping Rock. Mike DeVries built a green with a nasty little ridge through it at Pilgrim's Run in Michigan, but I thought the ridge was a little more severe than it needed to be for the shot ... I think it was harder to get to the back of that green than Mike intended.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2006, 10:39:41 PM »

Isn't the Eden at TOC something like this, at least for a front pin position? You certainly can't play short, but if you play too long it will run well past the pin position. The only way you can get it close is to play a superlative shot or do what I did, just be ignorant of how difficult it really is and get kind of lucky to hit it just the right distance and land a few feet short of the highest point. My caddie rolled his eyes at me when I somehow managed to hit the shot I had told him I was attempting

I'd prefer to see the Biarritz slope on a diagonal to the angle one is playing, that would allow for more imagination and shotmaking in producing the desired result. Particularly on a par 4 or par 5, it would make the approach angle of supreme importance.

« **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2006, 11:24:08 PM »

I think the 9th green at Friar's Head has an elephant buried in the front 3rd.

« **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2006, 09:05:00 AM »

To all -

Thanks for your replies.

TEPaul -

You definitely got the spirit of what I was talking about - a sentinel defense that only rewards the well play shot for that particular day's conditions.

Tom -

I love the 15th at Piping Rock for the multiple reasons that you described. I hope to find some excuse to get to Lubbock soon. Will you be returning to the town of your birth soon? Big changes at WBCC and WCC (My home club). Stanwich has also been under the knife lately.

Mr. Crockett -

I have yet to play golf at Clemson, and as an ACC gard of WF, I would love to do so one day. Most of my forays to my future home state involve HHI and The Heritage for work. Is the pin position on the top of the hump/ridge big enough to handle a P.J. Boatwright "Flying Airplane" set-up, or is it a novelty on a "Hardest Day of Golf"?

It's raining here again in the Northeast, and the Poa is in bloom. With three-day tournaments scheduled for the next two weeks, it appears that I had best practice the "Flop Chop".

Thanks again!

JWK

« **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2006, 09:33:25 AM »

This green has got such a feature and it does look pretty good. It’s a 230 yarder, slightly downhill. I think it could work very well when the greens are firm.

A closer look.

« **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2006, 10:42:19 AM »

Marc -

Interesting. Where is the picture from?

JWK

« **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:42:10 PM »

Didn't one of the greens on The Sheep Ranch have this kind of feature. Not a steep ridge but a crown in the middle of a long green. It was the green by the cliff and adjacent to the most spectacular tee shot on the course, along those cliffs.

« **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:45:21 PM »

Paul:

Yes, a couple of the greens at The Sheep Ranch have similar features. They were put in so there would be a chance to stop the ball to half of the green when approaching from either end, but understanding that sometimes the flag would be over the ridge on the approach, too.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 16, 2006, 01:16:14 PM »

Quote from: A.G._Crockett on May 15, 2006, 08:33:47 PM

The 12th hole at the Walker Course at Clemson is exactly this. 178 from the tips, 160 from the members tees, the green is relatively narrow and very deep, with a huge hump right in the middle and running all the way across. I'd guess the overall depth of the green at around 25 yds., and the hump is probably on the order of 2 feet high or so. I wouldn't want to guess as to the width of the plateau of the hump, but it is easily big enough for pin positions. (Michael Whitaker may have a picture of this green; VERY unusual green, but it works, I think.)

Architect is D.J. DeVictor.

A.G. - You are correct... #12 at Clemson's Walker Course would have to be considered a "reverse" Biarritz. I have never seen another green quite like it. Note that the green is divided into three distinct sections. The photo doesn't show it very well, but there is quite a tilt from back to front. Also, note the ravine to the right.

« **Reply #15 on:** May 16, 2006, 02:10:16 PM »

I would call it an 'inverse' Biarritz, rather than 'reverse', but that's nitpicking...

A very good inverse Biarritz is at Spanish Bay, the par 3 16th,
although the green is angled front left to back right. It
makes for fun short game shots around the green:

From the tee:

the green:

It's also currently on the front of the SB scorecard (taken from behind the green).

I've seen several that were rotated 90 degrees to play, such
as #17 at Pebble, #16 at Yeamans Hall (which is a
Biarritz/inverse Biarritz in one - it's a Biarritz with only the
back half as green, and the back half is basically an inverse
Biarritz, rotated 90 degrees (a vertical tube going from front
middle to back middle), and #5 at Soaring Eagles (Horseheads, NY).

#17 at Pebble (taken from the side):

« **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:02:20 PM »

Scott,

I too think "inverse" is a better choice of words. The thing that is interesting about the hole at The Walker Course is that a full 1/3 of the green is a raised platform in the middle of the green. I've never seen anything quite like that before.

« **Reply #17 on:** May 16, 2006, 05:22:13 PM »

While building our 13th at AC we jokingly referred to the green as a Ztirraib. I'll try to get a good pic of the green, when it stops raining.

Cheers!

JT

« **Reply #18 on:** May 16, 2006, 06:45:48 PM »

12th @ Windsor Parke in Jacksonville. I'd post a picture if someone could tell me where on this site I can learn how to.

« **Reply #19 on:** May 16, 2006, 07:57:27 PM »

Hey Mike....welcome aboard.

...I'd help but although I have 1300+ posts here, I'm still hopeless...

« **Reply #20 on:** May 17, 2006, 09:57:00 AM »

Michael -

Nice to have you contribute on this question.

Has anyone seen an inverse biarritz as dramatic as the hollow at Yale's #9?

Michael - for you, I would phrase the question:

Have you seen an inverse biarritz as dramatic as the "Ditch" at Yale's #9? ;>

(I am hoping to make the Dixie Cup, and would play for either side if my WF education will allow me to be considered as anything other than a carpetbagger...)

JWK

« **Reply #21 on:** May 17, 2006, 10:33:00 AM »

Some of those rolls (inverse or reverse Biarritz) in the photo greens are interesting but I sure don't see anything as large (deep, high or whatever you want to call it) as the swales in most of the biarritzes I've seen. Piping's swale which is not green space looks to be at least 4-5 feet deep as is the swale on the Fox Chapel Biarritz which also looks to be about five feet deep and not as wide as is Piping's. I've never seen Yale's swale in person. To have a roll on a green of those dimensions would be pretty radical, it seems to me. It might look something like the two enormous inline rolls on the old 12th green at GCGC which by the way were not greenspace (in the photo I've seen).

« **Reply #22 on:** May 17, 2006, 01:08:36 PM »

Killer - I guess I'll never live down that "ditch" comment... but, it's true!!! I hope you make the Dixie Cup, it will be a blast.

Tom - The rise in the middle of the 12th green at the Walker Course is at least three feet on each side, but it feels more pronounced than that. The photo is flattening out the look you really get from the tee. When the pin is located in the middle section it requires a very accurate (or lucky) shot to stay on that level... most balls catch the front or back slope and run away from the hole.

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