What makes an Eden hole and Eden Hole?

Any pictures? aerials? drawings?

Overhead of the Eden hole at St. Andrews



Photo of the Eden hole at Fisher's Island

I vaguely remember the HHWind GD article in about 1966, where he extolled the virtues of the Eden, describing the beauty of the hole as the fear of finding the deep Strath bunker possibly directing play a bit further left, where the golfer inadvertantly finds the less fearsome hill bunker, but finds himself in the bunker nonetheless as a result of playing too cautiously.

That description, from memory, fails to mention the little ridge in front of the green that assists balls in rolling left or right depending on how your run up shot lands.  We have also discussed that CBM (Hey, shouldn't Kelly Blake Moran's mom spelled it Celly, so he could have the same initials?) often added a top shot bunker, presumably reflecting the Shell bunker, but also in reaction to some belief that the hole was "too easy" for allowing a topped shot to roll on.

I always took the meaning of the hole from that HHW article (and my own subsequent thoughts) to mean (in modern practice) that its okay to have bunker left, bunker right, so long as one is clearly the more punishing hazard.

I'm with Panhandle Bill on this one.

I've yet to really play a great Eden that grasped the unique and thrilling characteristics of the original, all while fitting into the natural context and then producing it's own personality. The Eden, in my view, is simply a demanding tee shot that induces some sort of blood pressure-raising 'thrill' or challenge. It's all there right in front of you--standing on the tee: carry or die or the most precise bump-n-run past some fo the most threatening positioning of bunkers that allows you a shot at the pin. More people can skull it on that hole from fear and come-up lucky, and it amazes me that C.B., when creating the 13th at the National, strived for eliminating that portion of the shot--not that there is anything wrong with that, because the 13th is probably one of the best Eden's I've played other then the original.

Once your on the green--a green that is filled with some of the most ingenious INTERNAL CONTOURING that is as deep as Paris Hilton's brain--it is as equally as threatening.

The hole is brilliant.

Jeff Brauer,
Hard to believe you read anything other then your own posts, but I challenge you right here and right now to go out and build me the best Eden to your ability. Do something that no architect has ever done before, and that's accomplish the strategy and the most defining nature of the Eden from the tee, and on the green.

Yes. The 15th is the Eden at Yale.

George:

I still don't understand why Raynor's "Edens" were so nondescript by comparison with the original.

Travis got the hole closest to right with the 18th at Garden City, but it's still nowhere near as severe as the original.  I was choking big-time on the real thing in the Dunhill Cup last fall -- it was playing into a solid 3-club wind quartering from the left and there is always a big back-up on that hole with the crossover and all.

Here is #15 at Yale.  I just played there on Wednesday.



Also played CC of Fairfield this past week.  #14 is the Eden on that course.  I was allowed to take photos but can't post them.  I will say that #14 has a similar bunker on the front right and has marshland beyond the green.  It is a good hole but nothing to get real excited about.  

Tom Doak said:

"George: I still don't understand why Raynor's "Edens" were so nondescript by comparison with the original."

Tom, I think, by comparison to the original they are just about terrible.

I mean, the Eden and Redan were considered the best 3's on earth.

This has been bothering me since I started my research.

Did he think it would be too hard ? - did he think the back to front would be too severe ?  

................  I cannot think of any version they did that even comes close to what the original represented.

He/they built great Redans, great Shorts and great Biarritz's (or is it Biarritzi - ) - but Eden's?

Now given today's "fairness-world" I can understand this but Macdonald had no one to answer to, anytime, anyplace.

Even Raynor had his way most all of the time but here I can even "excuse" the lack of severity and difficulty of such a great hole because he had NGLA - 13 as his prototype but he must have heard CBM talking about this great hole many, many times.

I've always felt Raynor, perhaps unofficially, was not to build a "better" version of any of the holes on other courses that would "outshine" anything at National.

Tom, you spent a lot of time there ...........  how steep (in feet) is 11-St Andrews from back to front?


2-part question though:


Obviously from the tip of the back to the lowest of the front would be one number.            

Then we might think of the viable/playable part of the green as yet another number.          


Here's another question:  Could you, Tom Doak build a "real" copy of this front to back, today - I doubt it. (I mean they're "softening" Winged Foot as we speak - damn!!)

But back in the teens and 20's, and at those green speeds, you'd think they (CBM & SR) could have come up with a more befitting version.

The versions we post here (Camargo, Fishers Island, even the one Banks built at Forsgate - all very nice holes) are very picturesque, incorporate the basics, and play quite good for 160-yarders (moderate green surfaces) but to say they are "near-representative" of the original ?  Not to me.

Why did CB wimp?   good question ........  

(perhaps in a next conversation ...................  hah)

wadda wimp!!

Jeff Brauer,
Deep as Paris Hilton, meaning as shallow as her brain. I'll post the topo again.

Uncle George,
As steep and severe as any green to it's depth I've ever seen.


Tom Doak,
I always seem to forget just how good the Eden is at GCGC, although for me it still doesn't represent the same type of fearful shot as the original. The green seems similar, but somewhat larger. However, that trench-like bunker can be death. I'm not saying that it should be an exact copy, but I do think it should somewhat embrace the same principles at the original.

We know that amongst others, Colt was a keen student of TOC. Although simplified, the 8th on the Eden course captures the essentials of the concept (does anyone have a pic, pre Steel ?), Colt repeated and tweaked this hole on other courses.
It would be nice to agree on the basic concept rather than reverting to the finer details at TOC. I get the feeling that all the above mentioned copies seem to be loosing credibility from over analysis.

Holes that I have affectionately referred to as Eden copies suddenly have a big ? hanging over them !
Does this hole qualify ?
Thanks

 

George:

I think those contours on Tommy's drawing are 0.25 meters apart, so there is 1.25 meters (4 feet) between the back of the green and the front right hole location.  Unless you are counting the extension of the double green, in which case there's nearly 8 feet of fall altogether to the right of #7.  (Did you leave your first putt short, Sean?)

Tom

Yep.  I left it about 10 feet short ( I thought anything inside 5 feet would have been very good).  Left myself with another slippery side hill putt.  To be fair, I had no idea how hard to hit the putt because of the length and wind.  I would have much preferred hitting a rolling 6 iron, but fear held me back.

Ciao

Sean

Kelly:

Good counterpoint.  It just goes to show that not all of those "golden age" guys thought the same way about everything.

In the end, Macdonald was an accomplished player, and it killed him for someone to suggest that any of his holes were "weak" -- his reaction to his son-in-law driving the first green at National is pretty telling.  MacKenzie, on the other hand, was all about giving options to the weak player and making the strong player prove his superiority with the odds against him.