News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


wsmorrison

Merion baskets used on other courses
« on: March 25, 2006, 06:39:58 AM »
William Flynn applied for a patent on the Merion basket in August 1915 and it was approved in February of 1916. Flynn sold the baskets to Merion (there is no proof that the baskets were used on the East Course prior to 1916) through a company, Flynn and Peters.  Our own John Yerger found an advertisement for this and I located the patent application and approval documents.

Other courses that used baskets for a time include Winged Foot, Overbrook (on a previous site), Huntingdon Valley (on its Noble, PA site) and San Francisco GC.  I guess Tillinghast liked them and  the club used them for a time.  Does anyone know other clubs that used  baskets that might have been sold by Flynn?  

They must have fallen out of favor pretty soon--or were too expensive to continue their use.  Today, I believe one of the Sea Island courses use baskets.  Besides Merion, which never abandoned them (except in winter and either one US Open which I can't recall) I don't think they are in use elsewhere.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 06:40:21 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2006, 07:00:27 AM »
I don't know if they are the Flynn baskets, but Winged Foot has several upstairs in their clubhouse from when they were used on the course(s).

Neil Regan has info on them.

wsmorrison

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2006, 07:30:32 AM »
Thanks, Phil.  I mentioned Winged Foot in the list on my initial post.  Neil was kind enough to show me the one upstairs and it matches the Flynn patent.  The Merion baskets and poles were since revised, the pole as a direct result of the use of cup inserts.  Does anybody know when the use of cup inserts started?  Phil, I saw a photo in an old Golf Illustrated (I think) of a green at San Francisco GC that showed a basket.  Do you know what issue it was?  Do you have any photos of SFGC showing the baskets?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2006, 07:35:20 AM »
Wayne,
You may want to see what was happening with wicker baskets in the British Isles even prior to their use in the U.S.  Didn't Wilson get the idea to use them on his tour of those courses.  I'm pretty confident that they had been used over there for quite a while.  The reason was because of the high wind that could literally rip a flag stick out of the hole.  This as you know is one of the reasons some clubs also use shorter sticks.  
Mark
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 07:36:24 AM by Mark_Fine »

wsmorrison

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2006, 08:02:44 AM »
Mark,

I am well aware that the baskets were in use in the UK prior to their use at Merion.  While the facts are not all that clear which clubs used them and when, it is true they were used earlier in the UK.  I am also keenly aware of the reasons why the standards are shorter on many UK courses.  But why do you bring that up?  I'm merely trying to determine which US clubs used them and whether or not Flynn and Peters sold them the golf standards.  I never thought anyone would think I was trying to credit Flynn with the concept.  He is the one with a US patent on them, however.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 08:03:31 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2006, 08:11:33 AM »
I just thought other people on this site might be interested to know how the idea came about.  Not everyone here has the time to do that kind of research like you and I might.   The basket idea was another example of the influence of wind on the game of golf.  Interesting!

TEPaul

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2006, 08:13:54 AM »
Wayne:

Two things.

First, are you aware of the logistical complexity of the Merion "standard" (wicker basket) management program?  Every one of them must be removed at night and replaced early the next morning. They are all transported each way, morning and evening by the Merion Wicker Basket Tooter Trolley and only Matt Shaeffer is allowed to operate it.

Second, I think we should do some research into which clubs have used Flynn and Peters patented standards in the past without permission and sue them if they failed to pay Flynn (and now us) some royalty for their use. We may end up owning Overbrook, Winged Foot and San Francisco G.C, at least.

TEPaul

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2006, 08:16:10 AM »
Mark:

Merion G.C. seems to think the idea for the Merion wicker basket flagstick (standard) came from Prestwick G.C. This attribution is due to a painting of Prestwick in 1903 of a young caddie holding a wicker basket flagstick in an international match between Scotland and England while Harry Vardon was putting.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 08:20:49 AM by TEPaul »

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2006, 08:16:19 AM »
Interesting subject.

I would like to know who introduced the idea at St-Germain. The photo dates from the early 20's.


TEPaul

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 08:21:59 AM »
Wayne:

It appears we may own St Germain too.


;)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 08:23:01 AM »
Tom,
As you know, there were a lot of clubs over there that used them.  I can't recall who was first but I believe that information exists at The Golf House.  It might have been in a Golf Illustrated article that I read it but I'm not sure.  

Stuart,
Nice photo.  Is that the course in France?  I can't answer your question.

TEPaul

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2006, 08:31:09 AM »
Mark:

I'm simply telling you where Merion believes the idea came from. I'm sure if Golf House or anyone else knew more than Merion does about this Merion would probably be aware of it.

For your info, that painting I mentioned above of Prestwick in 1903 was apparently discovered by Tony Nickson, an English golf historian in 1989.

Wayne:

If there's any money left over after we've sued the aforementioned clubs I suggest we donate it to a program for luke-warm lunches for hungry Scottish shepherds.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2006, 08:39:19 AM »
Tom P,

Quel honneur !
Does this affiliation give me courtesy golf at Merion ?

Mark,
St-Germain is just west of Paris.



wsmorrison

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2006, 09:18:13 AM »
Tom,

You take St. Germain, Winged Foot West and Overbrook.  I'll take SFGC, Winged Foot East and Huntingdon Valley.  We may have to send Connie some royalties just to be fair.

Mark,

Alan Jackson, editor of "Through the Green" and a member of the British Golf Collectors Society asked Merion member Frederick Walden (Walton?) in Dec 1996 about the Merion wicker baskets.  Jackson said that Muirfield had wicker markers in 1899, he thought Stoke Poges might have used them as well.  Apparently in July and Dec 1912 Badminton Magazine there is a photo of 12th green with wicker.

The R and A has a photograph from the 1896 Open at Muirfield and they were using a small basket on a marker stick.  It seems that in 1894 a metal cup was first used to hold a stick.  There was a 1897 patent with a cup and flagstick.

As Tom stated, there is a famous painting of Charlie Hunter standing next to a wicker-top stick at Prestwick.

Oral tradition at Merion seemed to identify Sunningdale as the likely spot where Hugh Wilson would have seen wickers.

Interesting that no one knew of Flynn's patent until John Y and I rediscovered it.

The St. Andrews GC in Yonkers may have used a stick with a wicker liquor container on it but is unclear in an 1888 photograph.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 09:18:56 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2006, 09:46:42 AM »
Wayne,
What did the patent cover that was so unique to what was being used across the pond?  

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2006, 09:56:48 AM »
Wayne

I seem to remember that an Atlanta public course that NLE- Southerness- used wicker baskets for a short period of time. Perhaps some of the Atlanta contingent here can confirm this.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2006, 10:23:33 AM »
Wayne:

Will you just look at all these places that used wicker baskets at some point? If any of them are guilty of infringing Flynn's patent we may end up owning golf courses and small pieces of real estate all over the place--GB, France, Georgia, California, New York, Pennsylvania etc. I bet Dick Wilson's Deepdale even used them which means after this ridiculous township gets finished taking Deepdale through eminent domain you and I will end up owning that township.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2006, 10:55:58 AM »
Tom,
Is it possible they were using ones like those Prestwick had?  What were unique about the patented ones?

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2006, 11:21:58 AM »
I'm pretty sure the baskets are used at the Seaside course at Sea Island down in Georgia.  Has that always been the case, or is it a recent development?

What is the practical purpose of the baskets, exactly?  Are they used just to keep the player from judging the wind direction off of a flag?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

wsmorrison

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2006, 11:25:21 AM »
Mark,

It doesn't matter if they were unique versus the ones in the UK, if there was no patent on them they were patentable, right?  In any case, the details in the patent application covering the basket construction, pole and everything had to be considered unique according to patent law.

Steve,
We've got one of the Atlanta contingent up here now.  I'll ask him this afternoon.  Of course there is a strict limit as to how many Atlantans we allow in Philadelphia at a given time.  I think it is just one  ;)

Tom,

I hope you got your NY lawyers on the phone and are sealing the deal on our ownership of all these properties.  No raters allowed on our courses, right?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2006, 11:51:49 AM »
Wayne,
I can't tell you how many times I see players pull the flag and just drop it on the green. I imagine that a wicker basket wouldn't stand that abuse for very long and that it might cause some damage if dropped from 6 or 7' above the surface.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 12:03:17 PM »
Wayne,
If an idea is not patented and has been in the public domain, it is NOT patentable.  The prior art would peclude it.  That is why people file for patents "before" they publish anything.  It is possible that a patent could be issued but overturned later when the prior art was presented.  With the wicker baskets, there was clearly prior art before 1915.  You better hold off on taking ownership of those properties  ;)  

I actually hold a patent on a snow shovel design.  If one does a patent search, they will find it.  I never did much with the patent but I still swear by the shovel  ;D
Mark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 12:11:01 PM »
If you look at really old golf course photos (pre-1925) you'll find that there were a lot of different ideas for flagsticks in those days ... some of the British courses used metal stanchions of differing designs.

wsmorrison

Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2006, 12:18:48 PM »
Tom Doak,

Is there a point of origin as to when flags or other devices were attached to poles to indicate hole locations?  I guess St. Andrews would be the place.

Mark,

Given the incredible detail of the design for the Flynn patent, a wicker liquor container on a stick is not a prior item because it was in a painting or photograph.  If that were the case, if there was a painting of a snow shovel before your patent, you would have been unable to patent it.  Something about your shovel was unique and patentable.  Something about Flynn's golf standard was obviously unique and patentable.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion baskets used on other courses
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2006, 12:23:42 PM »
Sea Island's Seaside course uses wicker basket to honor Bobby Jones. I was told that Jones would spend time at Sea Island playing.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 12:24:06 PM by Bill Gayne »