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wsmorrison

which achitect's courses are you most interested in seeing and why?

For me it would be Stanley Thompson, hands down.  Some of the sites his courses sit on are the most beautiful imaginable (Banff for instance).  His course designs, from the many photos on this site, and I've seen elsewhere, really appeal to me.  They seem of a naturalistic style I like, the bunkering looks right and seem to be particularly well placed.  Cape Breton Highlands looks to be a wonderful course with rumpled fairways and outstanding green complexes.  Capilano and St. George's look to be wonderful routings and great golf holes.

For those of you that would know, are there any similarities between Thompson and Flynn?  There appear to me to be from photographic evidence.  I know it is just a gut feeling and nothing I can say for sure given my very limited exposure to Thompson.  Something seems to resonate between the two for some reason.  I've felt that way since I first started looking at photos of Thompsons courses.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 03:17:12 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 03:14:40 PM »
There's a certain Crump course in Clementon, NJ that would be on the top of my list to play (I've walked it twice)  ;)  

I'd love to see more Tillinghast and Fownes, and I really want to learn more about the Philadephia School, since I do live here.  

On Wayne's question about Thompson/Flynn, I think Thompson was affected by Flynn and the Philadelphia School.  This picture is of Highlands Links #4 - it reminds me a lot of Pine Valley #2:



I just looked at the pics of Rolling Green in the "My Home Course" section, and you can see how Flynn and Thompson both use the contours of the land to the course's advantage.  Not a lot of earth moving.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 03:20:47 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2006, 03:26:34 PM »
Dan,

PV #2 and HL #4 both feature uphill approach shots to the green, but they couldn't be more different. For one, the putting surface at HL #4 is about 1/5 the size of PV's number 2 green!
jeffmingay.com

Ted Kramer

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2006, 03:27:16 PM »
Coore and Crenshaw.
I've had a thing for Friars Head since it opened, but haven't had the chance to see or play it. The pics from Sand Hills are friggin amazing. And John K's description of Bandon Trails has me intrigued.

-Ted
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 03:29:20 PM by Ted Kramer »

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2006, 03:27:47 PM »
Jeff - you're absolutely correct - the greens are completely different.  I just thought the way Thompson and Crump placed bunkers on the hill was pretty distinctive.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 03:28:17 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Ted Kramer

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2006, 03:31:36 PM »
Coore and Crenshaw.
I've had a thing for Friars Head since it opened, but haven't had the chance to see or play it. The pics from Sand Hills are friggin amazing. And John K's description of Bandon Trails has me intrigued.

-Ted

And although I haven't seen Cuscowilla or Hidden Creek, they both sound like my idea of very solid, not overly done, shot testing, option filled, and walkable designs.

-Ted

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2006, 03:34:11 PM »
The bunkers in the hillside below the 2nd green and the 18th at Pine Valley are by Flynn!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 03:34:33 PM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2006, 03:36:17 PM »
Jeff,

Are there any similarities between Flynn and Thompson in your mind?  Did Thompson design anything on flat or coastal sites?

PThomas

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2006, 03:44:42 PM »
i am desperate need of heavy doses of Tilly and Flynn, cause I have never had either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

ed_getka

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2006, 04:09:00 PM »
I would like to see Colt and Thompson. I like Colt's bunkering style, and all the positive things I have read about his work over the years. If Paul Turner thinks highly of him, that is enough for me. Thompson because of where some of his courses are and the unanimous positive feedback I have read about his work at Cape Breton, Capilano, Banff, and Jasper,etc.
   Of moderns, I would like to see some of Jim Engh's work to see how it actually lays on the land and how much is aesthetics versus architecture. I would like to Jeff Brauer's course up in Minnesota that I have heard good things about, and now Sand Creek in Kansas that Jeff was saying has an Alps type hole and a Redan, so I want to see how well he pulled those off and integrated them into the property.
    There is so much to WANT to see, but just not enough time. :'(
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Bill Gayne

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2006, 05:05:58 PM »
The two I'm most interested in seeing is Flynn and McDonald. It seems that both did a fairly small quantity of work (compared to a Ross or RTJ) and the quality of the work is universally acknowledged as outstanding. My only exposure to Flynn is at Shinnecock and I've never seen any of McDonald's work first hand.

Ted Kramer

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2006, 05:57:47 PM »
Coore and Crenshaw.
I've had a thing for Friars Head since it opened, but haven't had the chance to see or play it. The pics from Sand Hills are friggin amazing. And John K's description of Bandon Trails has me intrigued.

-Ted

And although I haven't seen Cuscowilla or Hidden Creek, they both sound like my idea of very solid, not overly done, shot testing, option filled, and walkable designs.

-Ted

I'd like to change my answer.
I'd put Seth Raynor's work ahead of that of C&C.
Fishers is my #1 in terms of dream to play . . .
I'll go with Seth Raynor  ;D

-Ted

Ian Andrew

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2006, 05:58:14 PM »
For those of you that would know, are there any similarities between Thompson and Flynn?

No, if fact, I think they are very much in odds architecturally.

Flynn to me is the father of modern golf architecture. (in simple terms) Flynn is about carry angles, positional play, strategy, course management, pressure and hitting specific and precise shots. The look of the work is a lot more straight forward, usually backing up the strategies (although occasional placed to fool the player too). Flynn is a strategiest, and a damned good one.

Thompson is more about playability, positional play through width, he likes safe alternatives, and he was always into the dramatic. He believed more in the players having a fun test, that he did in testing the players ability. He also was very visual in his approach. He was more into framing, borrowed scenery and overwhelming you senses with his artisty.

More simply put Thompson is very visual with less emphasis on stretegy. Flynn is very strategic with less interest in aesthetics.  

My choice would be Herbert Leeds.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 06:00:57 PM by Ian Andrew »

Gerry B

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2006, 06:06:06 PM »
 maxwell and  langford

Tom_Doak

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2006, 06:13:52 PM »
Maybe Rod Whitman.  I've seen a bit of his handiwork, but none of the handful of courses that are his own design.

I've hardly seen any of Max Behr's work either.


Mark_Fine

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2006, 06:16:35 PM »
Wayne,
I would not think of Flynn when I think about Thompson.  I have not played as many Thompson courses as Ian Andrew but if you ask him to send you some old photos of what his work really looked like, you will see what I mean.  Ian and I spoke quite a bit on this in doing research for our hazards book.  If you look in our section on Thompson, you will see some of the conclusions we drew.  Of course there is some overlap of design philosophies but that is very common among essentially all the classic designers.  

For those interested in Thompson, The Toronto Terror is a good book to read and there are many other good references on Thompson in The Golf House.  Spend some time with Golf Illustrated for example.  Better yet, go see some of his courses.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2006, 06:18:12 PM »
Ian,
I see you just posted on this as well.  Seems we are in agreement.  Leeds could be a good choice!
Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2006, 06:23:24 PM »
Ian,

Thank you for that thoughtful response.  I was hoping to hear from you on the subject.  I would say that Flynn could get into aesthetics, but as you say, his predisposition was strategy and shot testing over aesthetics.  When he added aesthetics such as at Shinnecock, Boca Raton, Indian Creek, Atlantic City CC, Kittansett and a few other places (Denver CC and Norfolk
CC), the combination of factors was some of the best design work in the classic era.  

Interestingly, the courses with most aesthetic approaches were those by the seaside.  Perhaps, recognizing that sand hazards were artificial in parkland and other inland settings, Flynn viewed their construction differently--placement, strategic influence and psychological impact were more important to him on these sites than fancy work.  This restraint by Flynn is also evidenced in an analyis of how he bunkered areas of dynamic topography versus areas of a course with less going on.  It can be seen at Shinnecock and Cascades that where the land was topographic he relied more on "gravity golf" and where the land was flat or featureless he used a high degree of hazard architecture.

ed_getka

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2006, 06:24:51 PM »
Ian,
    I'm sure this is a gross oversimplification of what you are saying but, are you implying that Thompson was the Fazio of his time? ;)
    How were Thompson's greens in general? What are the other main attributes of Thompson's work other than playability?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2006, 06:28:29 PM »
Tom Doak,

I have a real interest in seeing some of Rod's work as well.  I've heard some pretty amazing things said of him by men he's worked with and competitors.  

Speaking of Behr, are there any courses of his that are intact or fairly intact?  Those Californians have been pretty bad at retaining the architectural integrity.  Given Behr's well-thought out philosophies and ability to see the big picture, I would have thought he'd prepare for the future by designing in elasticity and other factors that would stand the test of time.  Maybe not though.  What were some of the reasons his courses seemed to have been changed over time?  Not enough cheap Quakers out there to leave well enough alone?

Mark_Fine

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Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2006, 06:46:42 PM »
Wayne,
Thompson's courses are some of the greatest aesthetic courses designed and they were not seaside.  He was just very good!

I'm also glad to see that you are coming around to the fact that though well placed most of Flynn's bunkering (since most of his courses were not seaside) was relatively plain or as Brad Klein described in our golf architecture video, "almost boring in appearance"   ;)

TEPaul

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2006, 07:04:33 PM »
Wayne:

I agree with you---Stanley Thompson, but I haven't seen enough Maxwell, Travis, Emmet, Strong, Mackenzie, Colt, Park, Fowler and Alison either.

There are a ton of newer architects I'd like to see too.

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2006, 07:07:39 PM »
Mark,

I don't understand the implications of your statement, "Thompson's courses are some of the greatest aesthetic courses designed and they were not seaside.  He was just very good!"

He was just very good at what?  Making aesthetically pleasing courses?  Is your definition of very good making aesthetic courses everywhere instead of just on seaside land?

"I'm also glad to see that you are coming around to the fact that though well placed most of Flynn's bunkering (since most of his courses were not seaside) was relatively plain or as Brad Klein described in our golf architecture video, "almost boring in appearance"

Sorry, Mark.  Your gladness is misplaced ;)  I have not come around to any such fact at all.  I am and have been well aware of Flynn's bunker styles and designs in general and course specific for a number of years now.  It is evident to anyone that has made a study and has a keen eye that he designed and built simple bunker outlines but many of his bunkers were designed and built a bit more complex than many appear today due to maintenance practices over the years.  Surely you are aware that the bunkers we see today are not necessarily as they first appeared.  Many of the bunkers at Indian Creek and even Shinnecock do not appear like they were intended and maintained for a time.  Some of this is because the expense to do so proved to great but also because tastes changed and some superintendents years ago decided to finish them in a different way.  Some of Flynn's bunkers may have had simple outlines but that doesn't mean they were not without artistic merit nor easier.  Flynn used contoured floors of a number of bunkers plain (Philadelphia Country--although the bunkers were at one time far more artistic than they are today) and fancy (Kittansett) that created more interest and more demands than their simple shapes might indicate.  

Brad may think most bunkers were almost boring in appearance, but I think he's wrong.  I don't know how many Flynn courses Brad has seen, but it could be a sampling error.  Perhaps upon reflection I think he'd come to an understanding that many not most are plain in appearance.  But he had an outstanding variety of bunker styles.  This is something you don't believe in and I'm not going to spend much energy trying to convince you.  If you think Brookline, Merion, Kittansett, Seaview, Shinnecock, Boca Raton North and South, Cascades, Indian Creek, Denver CC, Norfolk CC, Atlantic City CC, Pine Valley, Philadelphia Country, Opa Locka, and others were boring or plain, I'd say your ability to analyze would be called into question.  All of the bunkering on these courses were artistic and complex.  I just named 14 designs (out of 50 course designs) and 1 redesign that are as aesthetic as any bunkering ever done.  That is a pretty fair percentage of courses.  Many of the other courses had some bunkers with artistic flare but granted were predominantly plain.  

TEPaul

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2006, 07:15:38 PM »
"Flynn to me is the father of modern golf architecture."

Ian:

I'd agree with that. We've been referring to him for a while as THE "Transition" architect. He really was sort of half way between ground game and aerial game reliance, and I think his basic technique that way is quite identifiable, as well as very logical. If Flynn had lived and worked another twenty years Dick Wilson may never have been as notable as he was.

wsmorrison

Re:Of Architects Whose Courses You Haven't Yet Experienced....
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2006, 07:21:00 PM »
Tom,

Do we have to send Ian a free book?

"William Flynn, the Father of Modern Golf Architecture," it could be the title of the book!!!  But then again, until the last decade, modern architecture was overwhelmingly poor.  Never mind, Ian is going to have to pay retail  ;D

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