[Mark_Rowlinson]

I can think of a number of courses on which the putting surface is somewhat reduced from the original because sprinkler heads for watering the greens were put in perhaps in the 60s or 70s.  How do you restore the putting surface to its original area?  What do you do with the sprinklers?

[Joel_Stewart]

It a good question, something our super and architect haven't been to accomplish in part because of the sprinkler heads.  

I'll assume there are many different ways.  I heard that at SFGC they somehow gently rolled back the existing grass and could see the original boundries for the greens.  

Other courses uses photos then prod the soil for core samples to see the boundries.

I think every course is a little different.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

An outstanding example of why it is such a great idea to do so will be seen at Winged Foot during this year's U.S. Open. For several years they have been working on restoring the greens to the actual 1929 dimensions. They were severely shrunk during WW II qhen the member ship made a decision to do that and save the East Course. If they had kept the West's green sizes they wouldn't have been able to maintain the East and would have let it go back to ground.

I am hopeful that Bethpage will restore a number of the Black's greens to their original size as well for 2009. If they do, everyone will discover a very different set of greens with a number of markedly severe undulations being in play.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Phil,

Rees Jones and co.'s extensive work on The Black in preparation for the 2002 US Open didn't include expanding the greens to their original dimensions?

Mark,

Irrigation heads can be moved by re-routing the pipe.

In terms of expanding the putting surfaces to their original dimensions, soil conditions factor in. Ideally, it's best to match the soil profile throughout the rest of the putting surface, which entails stripping the existing grass, coring that area, and importing a mix/profile similar to what's under the rest of the putting surface.

With old push-up soil greens, for example, the top layer just under the turf is usually a layer of sand top-dressing. That should ideally be matched.

Where soils already match, you can usually strip the existing turf then cover that area as restored putting surface with sod grown from aeration cores. That's really the only way to match the restored areas with the existing surface.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Philip,

I was lucky enough to visit Winged Foot last summer and to experience the restored greens.  It was during that very hot spell in August and the greens were quite slow, but it was fascinating to be shown some of the more interesting pin positions and outrageous putts.  It never occurred to me at the time to ask what had happened to the sprinklers.

Where do you put the sprinklers if the green is entirely raised above iys surroundings and how do you ensure the low points don't become over watered?

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Moving the sprinkler heads around greens to recapture lost green space is no problem. We call it "relooping". We did that on most all our greens during our restoration project a few years ago.

[Brad Klein]

Mark, I think that with modern variable irrigation heads, part circle and full circle patterns, and computer-monitored flow, enough water can be adequateky distributed to ensure fairly equal water. However, beyond a certain point, when the green gets back to being so big that some water can't reach the center of the green, you have major issues. I think that's one of the limitations of bringing back NGLA's putting surfaces to their full extent. Once a point gets more than 70 feet from even the most sophisticated irrigation head, reaching it gets very dicey - the more so as wind comes into play when throwing water that far.

[Donnie Beck]

Most classic greens consist of a variety of different grasses. It is near impossible to blend the expansion areas to match the original greens. One trick I have used successfully is to collect aerification core from the original green and create a nursery green with the cores. Once the nursery green is established it is easy to harvest the sod to use for the expansion area. This method takes a lot of time, and you may only be able to expand a few greens per growing season but I feel the results are worth the wait.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Should we be brave and not water those greens if they are too big to reach adequately as will have been the case as built?

[Michael_Stachowicz]

Mark, I think that with modern variable irrigation heads, part circle and full circle patterns, and computer-monitored flow, enough water can be adequateky distributed to ensure fairly equal water. However, beyond a certain point, when the green gets back to being so big that some water can't reach the center of the green, you have major issues. I think that's one of the limitations of bringing back NGLA's putting surfaces to their full extent. Once a point gets more than 70 feet from even the most sophisticated irrigation head, reaching it gets very dicey - the more so as wind comes into play when throwing water that far.

That brings up an interesting question, are there any instances when it is worth it and go back to the old days and start dragging hoses?

[Mike Nuzzo]

That brings up an interesting question, are there any instances when it is worth it and go back to the old days and start dragging hoses?

Definately yes.

And you don't have to drag them around anymore... they can be installed right in the ground with a recoiling nozzle.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most classic greens consist of a variety of different grasses. It is near impossible to blend the expansion areas to match the original greens. One trick I have used successfully is to collect aerification core from the original green and create a nursery green with the cores. Once the nursery green is established it is easy to harvest the sod to use for the expansion area. This method takes a lot of time, and you may only be able to expand a few greens per growing season but I feel the results are worth the wait.

Donnie,

Aren't the grasses immediately adjacent to the putting surface the same grasses as the putting surface ?



A question for all superintendents.

Why hasn't years or decades of top dressing resulted in an elevation of the putting surfaces, above the immediately surrounding area ?[/color]

[Jeff_Mingay]

Pat,

In many cases it has.

Specifically, I recall Geoff Shackelford writing about this problem with the newly expanded areas of green surface at Riviera. These areas are apparently steeply sloping because the "center" of the greens are raised.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

In many cases it has.

Specifically, I recall Geoff Shackelford writing about this problem with the newly expanded areas of green surface at Riviera. These areas are apparently steeply sloping because the "center" of the greens are raised.

Jeff,

Why wouldn't topdressing raise the entire green and not just the center ?

If anything, due to the turning process, the perimeter should be raised more than any other part of the green.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Pat,

As you know, a lot of 1920s era greens had shrunken by the 1940s and 50s. So, only the shrunken green (what is now the centre following surface area restoration) received topdressing over the past half century. Hence the build-up in the centre and the slopes along the periphery.

[Donnie Beck]

Pat,

It is fairly common to overseed greens with newer varieties of bent each year during the aerification process. If this hasn't been done to the surrounds then the grasses will not blend.

As for the greens being elevated the exact opposite is true. In most cases you will find a build up of topdressing around the collar. This probably wasn't much of an issue until the golf cart came along. It became a common practice to drag a mat behind a cart to work the sand into the holes. In the process of turning the mat drags excess sand off green and deposits it in the higher grass on collars and approaches.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Donnie,

I've heard that too. I'm citing Shackelford's observations at Riviera specifically, re the centres of the greens being raised.

If Geoff's looking in, perhaps he'll comment.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that you have to put in a physical barrier between the grasses used for the putting surface and those used for the surrounds or the more vigorous grasses will overwhelm the gentler types.  Has invasion of more rampant grasses been an issue where green surfaces have shrunk?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie Beck,

That's what I was alluding to, that the periphery gets more topdressing then the center and as such is more likely to rise.

I wasn't thinking about overseeding, but, you're right, it's rare that the outer reaches of the green surrounds gets overseeded.  I hadn't thought of that.

Mark,

It wasn't uncommon to insert a plastic barrier-liner on USGA Bermuda greens to their outer perimeters-surrounds for the purpose of preventing invasive growth from the more aggressive fairway grasses into the greens.

The abandonment of spiked shoes may have slowed the process of contamination as well.

[James Bennett]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that you have to put in a physical barrier between the grasses used for the putting surface and those used for the surrounds or the more vigorous grasses will overwhelm the gentler types.  Has invasion of more rampant grasses been an issue where green surfaces have shrunk?

Mark

at my club, we are endeavouring to run a 'three grass' policy:
- greens a mixture of (predominantly) bent with some poa,
- about 10 yards of soft grass surrounds, comprising a mixture of fescue, rye and bent
- fairways of warm season grass.  We use a santa anna couch (bermuda hybrid), although there are some better alternatives in use in Australia these days (Legend looks good).

At Kingston Heath and Metropolitan, they use a 2-grass greens/surrounds policy.  Pure santa anna (Metro is gradually replacing wintergreen with santa anna) on fairways and surrounds, then bent for greens (Metropolitan use dominant - 1019/1020, Kingston Heath use A1).  The important thing is the the shade intolerance of santa anna.  If the adjacent bent can be kept healthy, the santa anna will not invade into the bent surface.  Other warm season grasses might, but not santa anna.  Hard to believe until you see it.

Regarding coring build-up, we have adopted a different approach for the last two spring corings.  We saw this method in use at Royal Sydney (I think) in 2004.  We undertake a three day haeavy coring program of greens and surrounds AT THE SAME TIME.  6 holes per day.  We are trying to manage the thatch build-up in the surrounds just as much as the greens.  It is no point having 'firm and fast' greens when the surrounds are slow and soft at best, either through winter rains or summer irrigation.  Plus, you need to keep the surrounds well drained and decompacted to get the deep roots necessary to survive summer drought, especially with soft grasses.  In our case, the ideal maintenance meld ( ) requires we attend to the total greeens complex in one go.  It also works well in reducing the disruption to members, although they have struggled with the idea of a 12 hole course for three days, and working out which 6 holes they play to make 18 is very dificult (for some).

By the way, we have returning nines, but with a tweak, we also have three loops of six.  But anything less than the full 18 holes is a compromise for the members.

James B

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