[Mike_Sweeney]

On The Dismal River thread, Tim Krantz one of the owners of Dismal said,

"Also, regarding degree of difficulty, I believe that the members at Dismal River, as they begin to learn the course, will create their own layouts which are most suitable to their abilities.  

By this, I mean there is certainly no requirement that a group play every hole from a particular set of tees.  I think even the very low handicappers may choose to bypass the back tees on number two.  Players will mix and match tee boxes freely, and, in essence, create their own course."

Pat Mucci showing all the creativity that they teach out in South Bend, Indiana said,

"This seems to becoming a popular trend at many courses.
The custom designing of the course you want to play.
Wouldn't this also be considered a flaw in the design ?
Or, is it a philosophical flaw on the part of management ?

Shouldn't the architect forge a uniform test for the golfer ?
Or, should golfers determine, on a hole by hole basis, where they want to play ?  The 18 flavor test, with four sets of sub-tests ?

It sounds as if you're trying to appeal to everyone's desires, providing golfers with the ability to determine the challenge they will face on a day to day, hole to hole basis.  Doesn't this represent a significant departure from the roots and traditions of the game ?"
____________________________________________________

On my first trip to Sand Hills, I thought it was a little strange that the Sand Hills Golf Club course was not rated, and therefore my scores from the trip could NOT be entered for my handicap back home.

However, I came to appreciate and now really enjoy the concept of moving around on tees on various holes. I will always remember on my first trip standing on the 4th back tee at Sand Hills during a morning round and the Southampton Golf Club Men's Champion facing the wind and saying, "What are we doing back here? Let's move up!"

Music to my ears!!

So back to Patrick's questions - When playing "retreat golf" with your buddies should we play the free independent thinking Jesuit tees today or should we play the Catechism-like Mucci tees today?

[ForkaB]

Excellent thread brother Sweeney.  I'm going to start another one on a tangent from this, but before I go, I must ask:

Is the "Southampton Golf Club Men's Champion" who I think it is?  Is he still a "10" handicap?  The same guy who can outdrive Huckaby with his 4-iron?  If so, I think Confession is in order.....

[David_Elvins]

Mikke Sweeney,

Good post.

IN THEORY I like the idea of a golf course with one set of tees that contains enough width and interestingly placed hazards so as to be challenging and intersting for all level of golfer in all types of wind.

IN PRACTICE, I think there has to be some scope to move tees forward (for women) or back (for championships).  How much is too muchh though? WHere do you draw the line?

[TEPaul]

"It sounds as if you're trying to appeal to everyone's desires, providing golfers with the ability to determine the challenge they will face on a day to day, hole to hole basis.  Doesn't this represent a significant departure from the roots and traditions of the game ?"

No, it's probably a return to the very roots of the game before things like course ratng and the preceived need to post for handicap purposes began to prevade the game (at least over here), and before the stroke play "whole round" (handicap posting) mentality began to distort the very essence of the roots of the match play game (18 little mini-matches).

It's also probably a return to the roots of the game when it appeared that nature could set the course in numerous ways and not necessarily some golf architecture; a time when golfers felt they could actually discover their own strategies and feel like they uniquely owned them;

Hell, if there wasn't much play I'd like to see golfers play their own "courses within a course". What could be greater variety then that?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Excellent thread brother Sweeney.  I'm going to start another one on a tangent from this, but before I go, I must ask:

Is the "Southampton Golf Club Men's Champion" who I think it is?  Is he still a "10" handicap?  The same guy who can outdrive Huckaby with his 4-iron?  If so, I think Confession is in order.....

No confession from the Jesuit/Creighton grad Dr Gene is necessary. Dr Gene can kill us all in match play, but he too is guilty of "Sweeney inconcistency" for medal play. It is actually a friend of Gene's who now lives in Arizona and used to fly into Southampton for the club championship!!

PS. His Champion status was legit as he grew up at the club and spent part of the summer in Southampton.

[Bill Weber]

When playing a new course that has too big a difference between tee's I have played the Par 3's and 5's back and par fours up. Of course the problem of entering scores for handicap exists but I fudge that as well.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Mike.  My hero remains such.

[PThomas]

why not?  unless it's a formal competition, who cares?  Doak calls them the "combo tee" in his Confidential, I believe

esp true if the guys who set up the tees don't take into account strong winds that day, etc

and this is from a guy who's Catholic too!

[Kyle Harris]

Can't such a thing actually be handicapped? I thought each tee had its own hole rating that when added up contributed to the course rating.

Couldn't these just be added up in a similar fashion?

How would slope work?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mike,

Now that TEPaul agrees with you and disagrees with me, I know I'm right.

TEPaul, unless you've forgotten, the game started with the golfer teeing his ball within one (1) clublength of the previously holed out hole.   It took almost a century for the rule to be changed to two (2) club lengths.

So the ROOTS of the game called for ONE teeing area, not six per hole.

Now, back to Mike Sweeney.

Mike, Tim indicated that on EACH hole the golfer could choose what tees to play.   That's a departure from agreeing to play A forward or middle set of tees, consistently, throughout the round.

And as such, it represents another EROSIVE influence on the GAME, in a traditional context.

With that thinking, the game will evolve, or rather deteriorate to the point at which each golfer will be given one throw during a round.  That will lead to a more liberal version, probably played by TEPaul, where each golfer will be given one throw per hole.

The ultimate danger is that TEPaul and Dave Moriarty will be paired together and TEPaul will reinterpret the rules to extend beyond the ball and to his opponent, thus hurlling Dave Moriarty into a pond or similar hazard when the match gets tight.

I just want to remind you and your other legions of brainless followers.
[SIZE=4X]
WHEN THE RULES ARE BROKEN AT LEISURE, THE GAME CEASES TO BE GOLF.  [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Bill Gayne]

I think Pat's point is a valid one. I asked a similar question about the Sheep Ranch. Was it really a golf course or an elaborate practice area and the responses back were similar to the ones here. That it closely resembled the roots of the game and embodied the spirit of golf therefore it was a golf course and golf.

In practice I skip holes and play different tees but it's exactly that practice. It's fun.

[rgkeller]

One notes that the tee markers are usually set by the superintendent's representative and not by the architect or by God so deviation from those markers should not be considered a venal sin.

[Tom Huckaby]

Excellent thread brother Sweeney.  I'm going to start another one on a tangent from this, but before I go, I must ask:

Is the "Southampton Golf Club Men's Champion" who I think it is?  Is he still a "10" handicap?  The same guy who can outdrive Huckaby with his 4-iron?  If so, I think Confession is in order.....

I resent that.  I have never been so insulted.  It takes a 3iron for Gene to get past my driver.  

 

[ForkaB]

Huck

Mea Culpa.  I have writen on my white board, 25 times....

There is only one Thierry Henry
There is only one Thierry Henry
There is only one Thierry Henry
........

Hey!  I just figured it out, T Henry, T Huckaby, TH, TH....

Wow!

[Tom Huckaby]

Can't such a thing actually be handicapped? I thought each tee had its own hole rating that when added up contributed to the course rating.

Couldn't these just be added up in a similar fashion?

How would slope work?

Kyle - yes, it can easily be done, because each hole from each tee 25 yards apart does get its own rating.  Choose your tees, add it up, voila, you have course rating and slope.  At least two clubs that I know do this, and have a combo tee rating on their scorecards - MPCC and The Preserve.  At these its a combination of tips and one set up that the members have come to like to play.

But these only work rules-wise if you determine to play them before the round, and follow the set that has been calculated.  If you pick and choose during the round and don't follow this pre-determined combo set, you couldn't post unless you somehow had access to the individual hole numbers and calculated it yourself.

As for if it works policy-wise, well... Pat does have a point of it being an eroding of the rules.  But let he who plays 100% by the rules every round of his life cast the first stone here.  I wonder if even Mr. Mucci can... that is has ne never hit an extraneous practice shot, taken a mulligan, etc... To me this falls in that category - fun practice, technically against the rules, but who the hell cares outside of competitive play...

TH

[redanman]

If one plays match play, one doesn't post such scores under GHIN rules.

So play whatever teees you want.




::Moot (not mute, as some seem to think) point.

grammarman

[Tom Huckaby]

If one plays match play, one doesn't post such scores under GHIN rules.

So play whatever teees you want.




::Moot (not mute, as some seem to think) point.

grammarman

Not true - match play scores are most definitely to be posted.  Go check the rules again, my funky friend.  If gimmes are taken you are to post the score you most likely would have achieved.

TH

[ForkaB]

grammaredanman

The AwShuckster is correctomundo.

See below from your pals in Far Hills.

"Scores in both match play and stroke play must be posted for handicap purposes. This includes scores made in match play, in multi-ball, or in team competitions in which players have not completed one or more holes or in which players are requested to pick up when out of contention on a hole. (See Decision 5-1c/1 and Section 4.)"

Methinks you've got a helluva lot of posting of old scores to do!

[PThomas]

Patrick - it's not life or death, I'm talking about a friendly game where I go out with 3 of my buddies to play, the only thing at stake is a friendly wager:

what could possibly be so bad if we ALL  agree that the "normal" tee on the 475 par 4 is too far back that day because of a 35 mile an hour wind in our face, so we move up one?

the game is supposed to be fun, remember?

Paul "definitely not brainless" Thomas

[PThomas]

Sean - I'll bet most/all? of them were a Tiger -like 566 for 566 in the 3 foot and under range  when they posted them!

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - interesting question.  Of course one surely could do this if he was dishonorable enough, and there surely isn't a shortage of dishonorable golfers.

But wouldn't you say the VAST majority of golfers do this honorably and correctly?

In any case, its also a necessary part of the USGA handicap system, which has as a fundamental bedrock the requirement that all scores played under the rules of golf be posted.  Start to pick and choose and the system fails.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I'll bet most/all? of them were a Tiger -like 566 for 566 in the 3 foot and under range  when they posted them!

Paul - methinks you missed the point - or I did?  I think Sean was saying many took them as a miss, thus inflating their handicaps.

In any case, jeez in the scheme of things, think about how infrequently this occurs period... Seems to me to be no big deal one way or the other.

[Tony_Muldoon]

the game started with the golfer teeing his ball within one (1) clublength of the previously holed out hole.   It took almost a century for the rule to be changed to two (2) club lengths.

So the ROOTS of the game called for ONE teeing area, not six per hole.

Pat the roots of the game go back far beyond Rules.  In both the long game and the short game tagets and therefore 'holes' were agreed between the players.

Also consider that the position of the holes was regularly moved thus creating a different next hole each time.

[ForkaB]

Paul is right and you are incorrectomundo, AwShuckster.  It's all about vanity and not sandbagging, alas....

[John_Cullum]

I say it can be a reflection of weakness in design. I have taken to playing my home course's first hole from the back tee because of a forced layup from the "blue tee." It's a real bitch of a hole from back there, but it's a better hole.

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