[Sean_A]

I have never seen a Doak course.  If I/yourselves were to try and pick their first Doak course to play, which would it be and why?

For those that are old hands, which Doak course would you like to see again before the others and why?

All the realistic constraints of time, money and travel still apply.  

Ciao

Sean

[James Bennett]

Sean

the one that is closest and accessable.

Why, because it is the one that is closest and accessable.

I walked one, which I hope to play.  It was so different, I just want to see how it really plays.  

After that, I'll be happy to play a second one and compare that.  At this stage, I don't really care which one comes next.  We'll just see what opportunities  come through fate

James B

[Jfaspen]

I had the pleasure of playing Heathland in Myrtle Beach a couple of weeks ago.. Very nice.. Really challenged the game and the brain.
Trying to schedule a High Pointe visit this spring.  Would anyone suggest black forest over High Pointe?

Jeff

[Craig Sweet]

I would chose one of the first courses he designed. I could then compare his maturity as a designer as I played his newer designs.

[Andy Hughes]

Like Jeff, my first was Heathland several months ago because I happened to be in Myrtle Beach. I also really enjoyed the course, though I found the maintenance/softness had detracted from what Doak had designed.  
Hopefully I will be able to visit Beechtree later this year as it isn't too far away.

[Peter Pratt]

I like Black Forest a lot, Jeff, but I love High Pointe. Plus it's Doak's first.

[Bill Gayne]

I've played three Doak courses and the one I would suggest is Pacific Dunes. The problem with the other two I've played, Heathlands and Riverfront, is that they are probably a lot different then when Tom finished or intended them to be. This is due to extensive home building, maintenance and maybe changes. I think Heathland is at best a four on his own scale. (Though relative to some of the other stuff in Myrtle Beach this might be high praise.)

Pacific Dunes is a masterpiece that is still fully reflective of Tom Doak's capabilities.

[Sean_A]

I started this thread not knowing an awful lot about Doak courses.  I went to his site and checked out all of his courses.  I had no idea he had designed so many and at least three in Michigan.  Judging from the photos he seems to be a very diverse designer in that he will seemingly build a course anywhere.

I am intrigued that only one guy has mentioned the obvious big guns so far.  I too would probably not seek to play Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle because I have seen a few links courses and I am sure that despite the high acclaim for these two tracks, Doak did not reinvent the wheel.  Besides, all of the Kiwi/Oz tracks are much too far away to bother with unless I was already going that way for tourism.

Of the private courses I am most interested in Sebonack, Stone Eagle and Ballyneal.  Being private they are not worth a lot of contemplation.  Besides, Ballyneal is in some part of the country that should have been sold to Canada long ago.

That more or less leaves the public courses.  Unfortunately, none are anywhere near where I live.  I don't expect Tom will be designing a public course in the Midlands anytime soon.  So this means it will have to be a course of convenience while traveling.

That leaves only four courses.  Of the four, Apache Stronghold is easily the course I am most interested in.  I love the desert and I also have a very good mate who lives in Phoenix.  However, course conditioning seems to be a serious issue.  If I am getting on a plane to cross an ocean and half a continent to play a handful of courses, none should have conditioning issues.

This leaves three courses.  I am intrigued by the Heathlands course because it is an early Doak course.  Though Jeff, Andy and Peter didn't sound overly enthusiastic about the course.  How far is it from Caledonia?

Ciao

Sean

[Ian Andrew]

There are many spectacular courses on great sites to choose from now - but if it's pure architectural insight your after - I still like High Pointe as a place to start.

[mike_malone]

 Beechtree--then you could meet some of the "Philly Guys"

[Jfaspen]

Heathland is probably 35-40 minutes away from Caledonia.

I meant to sound more enthusiastic about it.  I prefered Heathland to TPC of Myrtle Beach.  It had some great elements of design.  
A classic par 4.5 with what Ran describes as the best road hole bunker replica.  Difficult green, I reached it driver 5 iron but I think I 3-putted.

Also had some good driveable or near driveable par 4's.  

It forces more thinking than most of the courses down there and if you're in the area, give it a chance.

Jeff

[Andy Hughes]

Though Jeff, Andy and Peter didn't sound overly enthusiastic about the course.

Sean, I am sorry I gave that impression. I liked the course overall. It clearly is better than most courses I have played. My only real concern was that maintenance practices have made the course softer than it was designed.  Holes designed with bouncing the ball in have had their approaches become perhaps a bit too soft for the shot. Conversely, holes that rewarded or penalized drives to certain areas have had some of the bite removed because the green can be held from the 'bad' side.

PS If it were me, I would go right across the street and play True Blue before Caledonia. But you'll get lots who'll say just the opposite.  

[Andy Hughes]

Difficult green

Jeff is practicing his skills of understatement. God help ya if you and the pin are not on the same side of that hill in the green!
 

[SL_Solow]

Tom probably won't comment but there were some reported "issues" with the owner in Myrtle Beach.  As such, I'm not certain that it is as reflective of his work as some others.  Notwithstanding its private nature, you should be able to get on Lost Dunes and it is a very interesting place.  Notwithstanding your links experience, you won't be disappointed at Pacific Dunes.

[Jfaspen]

Difficult green

Jeff is practicing his skills of understatement. God help ya if you and the pin are not on the same side of that hill in the green!
 

my 5 iron put me on the front, pin was on top.

3 putts later i had a par  

[Andy Hughes]

my 5 iron put me on the front, pin was on top.
3 putts later i had a par

D'oh!
Well, you definitely had the tougher pin. I had it down front, and my 5 iron out of the rough splatted into the giant hill in the green and rolled back towards the pin.  I would bet that a huge percentage of people end up on the front portion.

[George Pazin]

Can't go wrong with The Rawls Course!

There was a recent report on Apache Stronghold about its conditioning, maybe within the last 2 months. If you do some digging, you might be able to find it.

Sean, I'll relate a funny little story about the Heathlands course for you:

This past summer I was printing t shirts for a couple of, well, let's just call them rough, guys for an Allman Brothers concert the next day. Because it was a rush order (they literally walked in on Friday afternoon after they rejected an order from another printer, needing the shirts for Saturday), they hung around my shop while I set up the job. The Open Championship happened to be on the tube, Jack's ceremonial last round and all. One of the guys was watching with me while his artwork printed out, and he said, man, those pot bunkers are a bitch to play out of. I was somewhat surprised he'd been there (at least, that's how it sounded), he didn't seem like the kind of guy who'd make a pilgrimmage to TOC, so I said, "You've played there?"

His response? "No, but I played this course down in Myrtle called The Heathlands...."

P.S. You can't go wrong with meeting some of the Philly guys.

[A_Clay_Man]

 Besides, all of the Kiwi/Oz tracks are much too far away to bother with unless I was already going that way for tourism.

Of the private courses I am most interested in Sebonack, Stone Eagle and Ballyneal.  Being private they are not worth a lot of contemplation.  Besides, Ballyneal is in some part of the country that should have been sold to Canada long ago.

So this means it will have to be a course of convenience while traveling.

  However, course conditioning seems to be a serious issue.  If I am getting on a plane to cross an ocean and half a continent to play a handful of courses, none should have conditioning issues.

Sean, These comments above suggest a lack of interest in  doing any heavy lifting?  

And your comment on conditioning issues, raises the question.... You are interested in the GCA, right?

[Brent Hutto]

There are many spectacular courses on great sites to choose from now - but if it's pure architectural insight your after - I still like High Pointe as a place to start.

So could we refer to High Pointe as "Tom Doak's Woking", perhaps?

[Sean_A]

SLS

I don't know anybody at Lost Dunes.  

I would bet a ton that Pac Dunes would not disappoint.  Cost and travel issues make a visit there highly unlikely.  Besides, I can be teeing it up at least a dozen great links courses before I could drive down and check my luggage at Heathrow.  True, they ain't Doak designs, but he had to learn somewhere eh?

Mayday

Beechtree eh?  I have not heard anybody talk this course up.  How far is it from Philly?

Adam

I have a bad back so heavy lifting is against doctor's orders.  If I was in Phoenix I would probably head out for Apache Stronghold.  It would be much too much a temptation.  I wouldn't however, use AS as a centerpiece of a Phoenix trip.  

You guys are still not sounding terribly high on Heathlands.  However, it has a lot going for it despite your reticence.  A few Strantz courses are close, the weather is attractive and the green fee can't be too high.  

I understand that Tom had issues with High Pointe.  What were they and does Tom have issues with Black Forest?

Ciao

Sean  

 

[Andy Hughes]

Beechtree eh?  I have not heard anybody talk this course up.  How far is it from Philly?

Sean, you may be the impetus for a nice Philly/DC confluence.  Go ahead and start the trip planning and I bet you get a decent turnout from both directions!

(PS, Ran has a write-up of Beechtree here on gca)

[John Kavanaugh]

I will pay for the round of the first GCA'er with at least 100 posts that travels to Indiana to join me for a round at Quail Crossing.  I will even share the email that Doak sent me explaining which greens he particularly likes.

[mike_malone]

 Sean ,

    It is probably 1 1/2 hour from Philly . It is in Maryland.This is a public course of his. He has a well regarded private course west of Phila.---Stonewall.

[Mike Hendren]

I will pay for the round of the first GCA'er with at least 100 posts that travels to Indiana to join me for a round at Quail Crossing.  I will even share the email that Doak sent me explaining which greens he particularly likes.

Can I get grand-fathered in?  $17 is $17, baby.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

I checked with the Chamber of Commerce and the various greenfees you have spent in Vanderburgh County have already been respent 6 times...by those caluculations, including caddie fees and your most likely stop at Burger King on the way home,  the good people of VC owe you $1,260.00..We thank you but can not help you at this time.

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