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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
The aloofness of golf......
« on: February 19, 2006, 09:49:04 AM »
Golf maintains and breeds a certain aloofness.  And for no reason...I just attended the GCSAA show and saw one supt walking down the aisles in a 3 piece suit with ribbons defining , speaker,certified, potentate and various other assorted awards AND he has a few assts following him.  Let's just say they are checking out the newest in walking greensmowers and then right next to them is a supt in his sweater pouring over the triplex greensmower.  You sit in a seminar and watch the small course supt listen and absorb all of the hype on the newest draiange system and then take that and go back and imrovise for half the cost where the big club guy in front of him gets a quote and places a 10% contingency in his budget to have it done....
Or you go to a conference and listen to someone discuss USGA greens and watch the looks you receive from the upper echelon if you mention a push-up or sand green.
Or even worse mention replacing bentgrass on a pushup with one of the ultradwarfs.....
My point is this aloofness may kill golf....I have seen riding greensmowers that cut as well or better than a walker....I have earned a respect for the small supt that actually cuts his own greens and does amazing things with a budget that seminars would say is impossible.  I have seen push up greens that survived a summer when all USGA greens around tem were suffering much more....
24 years ago when I called on supts and sold turf equipment I could always learn so much more from the old guy that had no budget than from the higher end clubs.  Now don't take that in the wrong way..these guys were also good guys but they did not have the battles of the smaller guys at smaller clubs.  The high end guy might require an appointment to see him and require a demo piece of equipment for a month where the small guy was just glad you stopped buy.  I recall one of the best always had to see you in the afternoon because in the mornings he was a corn farmer and did not get to the course until 12.
These small guys always had a complex which kept them from standing up and talking a seminars etc because they thought the other end knew so much more....And now 24 years later I can say that most of my true learning came from those guys.....
golf is at a crossroads and it had better absorb what it can from all...
the USGA green doesn't guarantee anything except consistency...supposedly yet it can make golf unaffordable to many...
A walking greensmower gives you pretty stripes....
And a supt with three assistants makes himself that much easier to replace....
I have the utmost rtespect for supts...my father in law was one for 40 years....so nobody get their panties in a wad...

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2006, 09:57:54 AM »
Mike:

I'll join hands with you on that post.

Architects have gotten a lot of blame (and some rightly so) for accelerating the costs of golf.  But when you go to the Show, it is obvious that everyone there is trying to sell superintendents and green chairmen on spending MORE money on their courses, not less.  And many are taking the bait, believing what they are told in turf school that the bigger budget they manage, the more professional they are and the more money they will make.

On the first course I designed the superintendent's equipment wish list came to $300,000.  Last year I saw one for $1,800,000.  Of course I guess the latter course cost something like 6x as much to build, too, but he's still maintaining the same amount of turf.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2006, 10:11:42 AM »
Tom,
I just saw a 27 year old asst interview and he told the owner he had no interest unless the budget was 1.2 million. Oh well....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

A_Clay_Man

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2006, 10:23:24 AM »
Mike- You mean it's not the ball that is ruining the game? It's the people? ;D

These crossroads? I suspect it's always been like that. Probably in every field, too. uhh... uhh, I mean Industry.

A majority of any industires aloof, have proven themselves to be the sheep. Not the leaders. Why? I suspect it stems from a fear that someone might find out they dont know what they are doing. As opposed to that little guy, who confidently knows what he knows and doesnt pretend he doesn't. That's why he is at the seminar, to learn, right? If he's smart, he'll learn that he has the satisfaction that comes from knowing.

Why do all these private courses allow disfigurement, tree planting etc.?

Seems like it's ignorance combined with a lack of confidence.

Who knows Hootie, like I no hootie hey hey hey

Gary_Mahanay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2006, 10:26:29 AM »
Mike,

The course that I work at now has a million $ budget.  The latest and greatest irrigation system.  Nice John Deere equipment and a very capable equipment tech.  Tif-sport fairways and Tif-eagle greens (walk mowed) and hand raked bunkers.  My super is a master at delegating but I think that I learned way more when I was at the local city course that had just a quarter of that budget... and the difference between the conditions of each course was not $750,000 apart.

Gary

PS   I never did get those pictures of the Pavestone cartpaths you did at Hacienda Pinilla.

TEPaul

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2006, 10:27:01 AM »
MikeY:

Good post. I've got to ask though---the big meeting in Atlanta was the Superintendents of America Association right? It sounds like it was also a week's display for every new product on the market today for everything and anything to do with golf courses. Is that kind of product display and sales job really necessary? Seems to me the American agronomic INDUSTRY is just bloated out of all proportion or common sense. Seems like all that stuff just serves to continue "hybridizing" grass----basically the wrong direction for agronomy to be going in, in my opinion. I think it should concentrate on going back the other way and away from increased hybridization. Only trouble with that is the agronomic INDUSTRY won't gross as much money. So what if it's not really necessary for good strong American agronomy in the future?

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2006, 10:30:27 AM »
Mike,

I like what you are saying.   However, I don't think the issue with the walk vs. ride green mower is necessarily the cut or the stripes, rather I like the walk because I think it gives me a better chance of keeping the peripheral pin positions.  I have been surprised how well the ride does on some of the crazy slopes on some of my greens so even that is not much of an issue anymore.

The level of maintenance that supposedly is expected is so high that we are creating very artificial environments at the same time that we say we are natural.  I can talk all I want about land based design and try to keep my courses close to the ground and treat the new designs like a renovation, in other words we are renovating the land for a golf course, not turning it upside down to make a work of art, yet the maintenace practices seem to be geared more toward meeting unrealistic expectations and turn the place into a very unnatural experience.  

Look at the new Tiger Woods facility.  Magnificent building next to a modest kind of low end course from all accounts, yet they get Tom Fazio to design a putting green and I think a practice range.  Kind of a stretch on your point but it seems like a huge disconnect between the existing facility and the new facility.  But in some ways it seems relevant to your excellent point in that golf seems torn between the struggle to provide great golf in terms of play and the desire by some to put up a prestigious, sometimes, false front, and the two are difficult to reconcile particularly in the realm of public golf.  

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2006, 10:33:11 AM »
I am not sure everyone at the Golf Inductry Show is trying to get supers to spend more. There is always the element of change and efficiency at play. Many corporations selling to golf are trying to get in the door...not always at a higher cost.

It reminds me of a golf hole with options. You can skate down one path, perhaps an enticing route — that may cost you some strokes. Or, you can make a decision along a more conservative path. It's all a matter of choice and decision.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2006, 10:36:31 AM »
MikeY:

Good post. I've got to ask though---the big meeting in Atlanta was the Superintendents of America Association right? It sounds like it was also a week's display for every new product on the market today for everything and anything to do with golf courses. Is that kind of product display and sales job really necessary? Seems to me the American agronomic INDUSTRY is just bloated out of all proportion or common sense. Seems like all that stuff just serves to continue "hybridizing" grass----basically the wrong direction for agronomy to be going in, in my opinion. I think it should concentrate on going back the other way and away from increased hybridization. Only trouble with that is the agronomic INDUSTRY won't gross as much money. So what if it's not really necessary for good strong American agronomy in the future?

TE PAul,

It is possible the answer to sound agronomy is first more attention to soil science and second the development of turf species based upon a more localized approach, rahter than breeding grasses that can be used over a much wider regional area.  I wuld bet there are significant variations in the helath of a native turf in Pennsylvania as comapred to Maine, yet an architect working in both climates would probably spec the same grasses.  I think there are some choices but I would bet we could do better in identifying more appropriate local turf species throughout the country, though it may be cost prohibitive.

TEPaul

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2006, 10:38:27 AM »
Were there any "low irrigation", less chemicals and fertilizers and more organic guys or pitches at that show? Was the USGA Green Section represented there, and if so how and what was their basic agronomic message?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 10:39:06 AM by TEPaul »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2006, 10:42:38 AM »
The Green Section was represented, but I did not hear them speak. They had loads of USGA literature.

As for organic microbes and other such "non-invasive" methodology — all the cast of characters were present hawking their wares. It was quite fun.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2006, 10:54:42 AM »
KBM,
I understand the concern for the walkers and pin positions and agree...but the riders have really progressed...especially if you can do the clean up cut with a walker etc...
TE,
as FR says the show has everything and no not everyone is trying to sell up...what I was trying to say is that everyone seems to be LOOKING up...and it seems that many of the bigger budget guys see no reason to take any chances...don't know that I can blame them...
I remember when lightweight fairway units came about.  About 1984 Paul Latshaw had his mechanic at Oamont weld two outside cutting units on a G3Toro triplex greensmower...that was the first....at the time there was a 7 gang fairway unit that could last twenty years..But...you did not sell as many parts ...... if the market would accept a better height of cut on a mower that would need REPLACING EVERY 5 YEARS that would be great....
most turf equipment is sold at close to cost knowing that you will buy the parts....the industry found a way to absorb this and it became a standard....ad now we have groomers...what will be next????
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 10:57:42 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2006, 11:22:56 AM »
"....the industry found a way to absorb this and it became a standard....and now we have groomers...what will be next????"

MikeY:

What will be next is psychiatrists for American golf's grass!!! I tell you this American agronomy is getting deeper and deeper into the "EMERGENCY WARD" every year. The next item on some annual budgets will be medical insurance for our golf course's grass.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 11:25:47 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2006, 11:25:20 AM »
TE,
Check the ST Paul Insurance Eagle Three policy....there is insurance for grass etc....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2006, 11:31:15 AM »
MikeY:

What we need to happen to America's golf agronomy in the future is to have all its little hybridized blades of grass break out of the EMERGENCY WARD, and break out of the whole agronomic HOSPITAL it's been in for years, and run out into the wind and rain and sun and heat and cold and bugs and insects and whatnot and into MOTHER NATURE'S naked arms SCREAMING;

"Free at last, free at last, THANK GOD ALMIGHTEEE I"M FREE AT LAST."
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 11:51:40 AM by TEPaul »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2006, 11:49:25 AM »
Money makes the world go round.

My boss tells me its all a matter of "degrees"...not Phd's etc, but how much money you have to spend.

For example, our chemical budget is less than $40,000. It costs XXX amount of money to buy and put down growth inhibitors. So we limit their use to around bunkers and on the drving range. To do more area, and god knows, they do work, would mean taking money from somehting else? Snowmold protection? Our modest effort at controling weeds? Where do you rob from?

We mow our fairways three days a week, and typically it takes two people about 6 hours...some days longer. Thus, we are in the way of golfers all morning long....is there a solution? Sure, more mowers and more employees...but where does that money come from?  

For us, planning and prioritizing is so important because we have limited resources....I feel, and I have been told by others, that our super is as good as they come when we're talking turf care...but what makes this guy so valuable is he can prioritize better, he can organize better, and get better results with fewer resources.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2006, 11:55:36 AM »
Craig:

I realize you may not have ever been there but if you took your maintenance program and your maintenance budget out there to say NGLA, how do you think it would go over? I don't think I'll tell you what theirs is but I might tell you what it's over.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2006, 12:14:54 PM »
Tom...I do not think the members would tolerate so much "interaction" with the workers.  I can get out ahead of the golfers and have the greens mowed, but when you are mowing around greens and tees, or fairways, or rough, or tee boxes, you will have to work in and out between golfers...That is but one aspect of a small budget...the course conditions might not be so much different initially, but over time there would be a difference....the course might be shaggy'er

 For example, we can only afford to aerify and top dress greens twice a year...spring and early fall...we can only afford to mow tee's twice a week...we often do not have the resources to aerify fairways even though they might need it...so we put it off until the next year...our chemical budget isn't large enough for NGLA...at least I don't think it is...

However....how many rounds do they do at NGLA?   We are doing close to 50,000 between March and November....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2006, 12:20:58 PM »
By the way Tom, I think we do a terrific job. We host the Montana Open every year and the pro's that come from all over the northwest have nothing but praise for the condition of the course...during the heat of summer, inspite of putting down over 600,000 gallons of water every night, we play pretty darn firm and fast...our goal is to "try" and keep the grass alive...we can't begin watering until close to 10pm because of play...and we have to be shuting down the irrigation by 6:30am because of play...that means we have a bit of a limit as to how long each station can run and still get the entire course irrigated....so we could be a lot wetter than we are.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Scott Cannon

Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2006, 12:54:03 PM »
Golf maintains and breeds a certain aloofness.  And for no reason...
These small guys always had a complex which kept them from standing up and talking a seminars etc because they thought the other end knew so much more....And now 24 years later I can say that most of my true learning came from those guys.....

Mike,
I hate to be the one to say this, but that attitude is true everywhere and in every industry, even in this discussion group.

Here is a good example, my roommate of several years worked on low budget films. His group figured what they really needed, money wise, to make a good film. He then moved to Hollywood and work on blockbuster films and he would tell me of the waste going on, big waste. The industry is now struggling to get people to pay $9 for a ticket. It could kill the industry. He has now, and by the way you see this with big time actors and directors as well, made the move to smaller more independent film making. They find this a purer way of expressing themselves, and they make better films. The trend has caught on and the biggest people in the film industry have now "seen the light"
Although this isn't an exact comparison, it does give hope that the pendulum WILL eventually swing back. When respected people like TD, C&C step out of the herd and say, "brown is good, less water is good, natural is good, having eye candy doesn't make a better golf corse (and this one is for all the tree guy's) having more trees isn't a good thing", people do notice.

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2006, 02:00:18 PM »
Mike, I agree with you totally.

The cost to build and maintain golf courses continues to baffle me and I continually think it is far out of hand and WILL correct itself in a poor economy.  (New course construction is doing that now)

I believe this so strongly that it is part of my design philosophy.

How? When a designed golf feature requires excessive hand work, the designer puts the Supt into a locked man hour cost for maintenance. Same with Walk vs. ride greens mowers.  And yes Riding greens mowers do as good cutting greens as walkers. Any difference is  immeasurable.

More HAND LABOR = Higher golf cost.  period!!!

Example: Rees J just redid Belle Meade in Nashville and EVERY bunker & greens  bank is now hand mowed due to the severity of the slopes.

Now Belle Meade can afford this Now and probably would in a bad economy but 99% of those course with similar features would fail to provide as good of conditions.  I contend this is the beginning of the end of some courses.

Economy fails, income decreases, Budgets go down, play decreases more, budget decrease again etc etc ect.

Designing a course that is maintainable by bigger riding equipment is  then a key to long term survival.

Quality? I know too many golf courses in the same towns that one spend 350k a year and another 1.5 million and the separation quality is not proportionate. NOT even close!

Having minimum debt is another. (read the courses for sale lists that are out there as well as bankruptcies)
 
I do think eventually the total ruins of golf will not occur, but many courses will see bad times if ( and I am not a pessimist by any imagination) the economy slumps for a long period of time. We then will see many course that are … firm and fast, and not as lush and mowed as well.



Times flys and your the pilot !

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2006, 02:25:53 PM »
They'll put the growth regulators to those bunker banks and reduce the amount of mowing they'll need to do.

However, growth regulators are not cheap.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2006, 02:27:35 PM »
They'll put the growth regulators to those bunker banks and reduce the amount of mowing they'll need to do.

However, growth regulators are not cheap.
nor the panacea for cost containment on a golf course.
Times flys and your the pilot !

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2006, 02:38:52 PM »
Right you are Mr. Lemons....if you want "more" you generally pay more.

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The aloofness of golf......
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2006, 02:39:55 PM »
Mike Young, this aloofness fostering inferiority complexes of certain have-nots, and the intimidation of industry sponsored conventional thinking processes is found across industries and professions.

Highly competitve big businesses hawk their wares in the golf industry just as other industries.  They use similar intimidation methods like hiring so-called professor turf experts to subtly (not so subtly at times) tell the stressed out supers that such and such a product is the answer to all their worries.  It will promote "healthy" lush and green conditions and save their jobs.  They go ahead and lobby decision makers (the club committee people) and influence them with pumped up rhetoric about what is the state of the art conditioning through more products propaganda, and sponsor one-upsmanship via interclub jeolousies encouraging attitudes like, 'our course stimps and is greener than yours'.  

This all goes to the supers, who buy into the rat race (even if contrary to their gut intuitions) in order to keep their jobs.

It is rare that a fellow like Scott Anderson of HVCC has the type of committee backing, and the independent spirit of trusting his knowledge to develop a program of turf management that flies in the face of much of the conventional wisdom, industry and academia experts.

I don't think it is a matter that academia doesn't know what sort of regimines foster great golf-turf conditions, they just aren't paid or granted $$$ by the industry to say less is more.

Necessity is the mother of invention.  And the economy will ultimately function to level out with realities.  But, it is always a long and unending process.  

Finally, I also know some greenskeepers that don't even belong to the GCSAA, or are non participating members, yet they manage little modest facilities and get the job done with what little they have.  IN a way, they are really the heros of the profession because it takes both guts and determination to buck a very intimidating hierarchy.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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