Signature golf courses?

« **on:** February 02, 2006, 08:07:39 PM »

A new Fred Couples "signature" course will be opening soon outside of Chape Hill, NC. What exactly does "signature" mean? I see that he had a co-designer. How much do you think Fred had to do with this project? And has anyone played any other of his courses? Also, has anyone seen the finished course?

Dave

« **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2006, 08:15:29 PM »

I know Freddie made a course with a co-designer up here in Seattle.

Newcastle GC, Coal Creek course.

It's 'signature' as well...

...which means its an OK, above average course that is extremely expensive but people will play there because it says its a 'signature' course.

Dont know if thats the case here, but it sure could be.

« **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2006, 08:59:29 PM »

Here's a good one:

Sanctuary Cove on St. Andrews Sound.

It's a "Fred Couples Signature Golf Course designed by Love Golf Design."

http://www.sanctuarycove.info/amenities.html

« **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:32:55 PM »

Fred Couples has worked primarily with Schmidt-Curley in CA & AZ. Adding his "name" and "signature design" is a marketing device enabling the developer to sell lots and/or memberships. The general public does not know Schmidt-Curley. They do good work. See The Plantation & The Palms in CA, Southern Dunes & Canoa Ranch in AZ. How much is FC involved? Just enough is my guess.

« **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:59:20 PM »

Add Carolina National at Shallotte, NC (extreme north end of the Myrtle Beach area) to the Couples signature list. A very nice golf course; don't know who the consulting GCA was on the site.

Sanctuary Cove near Brunswick, GA, opens in the late spring, I believe.

« **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:29:07 PM »

Freddy signature is also on San Juan Oaks just outside Holister, CA. It is a pretty good course that is regularly used for the first stage of PGA Tour school. We had a Futures Tour event at Carolina National in 2000 and it was pretty good, although there were some longish walks.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2006, 10:43:09 PM »

The architect behind San Juan Oaks was Gene Bates, who Couples hooked up with on several occasions.

The course Jordan refers to is the Golf Club at Newcastle (2 18 holes courses Coal Creek and China Creek) is on top of a landfill with some fantastic views. The architect was Bob Cupp and Couples was added to add some local flavor.

I have my doubts on how much input Freddie has on the courses he is involved with, my guess is the signature refers to the check he gets on opening day as he asks where the first tee is.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:32:34 PM »

Doesn't "signature" usually mean the architect agrees not to do another course in the same area?

« **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:08:34 AM »

Sounds like Fred may not do a lot of actual design. But does anyone know for sure? Lots of guesses and supposes here. Anything more solid?

« **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2006, 04:07:40 AM »

I played Westfields GC about 20 miles west of DC a while back. I thought the course was quite good, best I have played in suburban DC. I played in the spring, but I still thought drainage was an issue.

Ciao

Sean

« **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2006, 06:41:10 AM »

Here is a link to Sanctuary Cove's golf club website:
www.sanctuarycovegolf.com

« **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2006, 07:16:41 AM »

I believe Gene Bates did Carolina National too -- with FC.

« **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2006, 07:23:40 AM »

Robert Trent Jones was the first that I know that used the term signature in GCA, ref: "signature hole".

I think Jack may have been one of the first to start marketing the "Signature Course"

What you should know is that typically, adding “signature” to a design :
1. Does not change who does the actual designs of the course (in office or in field)
2. Usually escalates the fee by the GCA
3. Is typically a marketing ploy as earlier stated to sell homes, memberships,etc
4. Seldom changes the quality of the course in the end, since the owner controls the budget and sets the construction budget early.
5. will determine how many visits the Signature name appears on the site during construction and the opening.

Consider this, If YOU (as a GCA) were hired to design a golf course and you had just 2 different fees, A signature fee and a non signature fee, would you tell a client that a non signature fee course was not your BEST design effort? I would have a hard time telling my clients that they needed to pay me double just to get my best efforts.

I know one GCA firm who will tell you it is only about marketing, the GC will be the same. the additional fees by the GCA is appearance money depending how often they or members of their team show up.

Jerry

« **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:04:59 AM »

A little history...

The term comes from a business-card-sized advertisement that RTJ Sr. ran in the old Golfdom (and perhaps other places). It featured Trent's scrawly "John Hancock" and the tag line, "Give you golf course a signature."

In short, the term started out as a marketing gimmick and remains so today. My personal definition of the term is: "Expect to pay more to play here since we paid some player/designer too much money and we have to recoup it somehow."

Best to all from dreary Cleveland. It's so crappy here I'm actually looking forward to heading off to Atlanta for the show next week!

PJ

« **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:30:58 PM »

A couple of my upcoming clients have started to market their courses as a "Tom Doak Signature" design.

I don´t want there to be any such thing ... but since there is no such thing, I´m not sure how I can stop them.

I guess I have to make a new category of design services with a $5 million fee so that I can stop them from using the term "signature".

« **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:56:06 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2006, 12:30:58 PM

A couple of my upcoming clients have started to market their courses as a "Tom Doak Signature" design.

I don´t want there to be any such thing ... but since there is no such thing, I´m not sure how I can stop them.

I guess I have to make a new category of design services with a $5 million fee so that I can stop them from using the term "signature".

Tom,
Should GCA members boycott those courses in a show of solidarity with your wishes?

« **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:15:09 PM »

Quote from: Don_Mahaffey on February 02, 2006, 11:32:34 PM

Doesn't "signature" usually mean the architect agrees not to do another course in the same area?

I believe architects like Tom Doak that actually do agree not to do another course in the same area would be really pissed if you call their courses signature courses.

Signature to me means they signed something allowing their name to be associated with the course. There are stories about these so called signature designers not knowing how to get around the course, going to the wrong tee, etc. and not even knowing where the course is or how to get to it.

« **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:17:32 PM »

Sorry,
Didn't read the whole thread before posting.

« **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2006, 12:32:59 AM »

Garland,
Not sure where you were going with your post. All I know is I once worked as an Assistant Super at a "signature" golf course and was told by the GM that it was called "signature" because of time spent on site by Mr. Big and the fact he couldn't design another course in the area. Based on the architecture I think that was a good thing.

« **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2006, 09:51:28 AM »

Very clever Don.

Tom Doak, How about a TD "handshake" design. Extra fee of course.

For the likes of me, I always have felt the archie took his best designed holes (in concept), off his computer, and laid them down on land usually ill suited for same.

« **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2006, 12:54:04 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2006, 12:30:58 PM

I guess I have to make a new category of design services with a $5 million fee so that I can stop them from using the term "signature".

ahhh...
Almost, but that would be called a Premier Design!!

« **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2006, 01:18:46 PM »

Might Sebonic be a "Double Signature" course??

« **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2006, 02:08:27 PM »

To answer the original question, it means Fred Couples gets his picture on the marketing materials, it means the course/club gets to use his name, and it usually means that Freddy gets to show up on opening day and ask for directions to the first tee.

I've only played one of his courses, the aforementioned Carolina National (actually designed by Gene Bates).

Not to differ with Mr. Crockett, who I normally find much to agree with, but I thought the course was a failed attempt to create some strategic interest with wide fairways and multiple options. Unfortunately, most of them were pretty lame and the course has as much intimacy and unique character as a Walmart. I'd give it a Doak 3 or 4 at best.

« **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2006, 11:07:07 PM »

I remember Gary Player being asked in an interview , the difference between a Gary Player designed Golf Course and a Gary Player Signature Golf Course ? .

And he replied that , he would have a personal involvement in the Signature Course .

« **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2006, 08:24:28 AM »

Its like a $300 pair of blue jeans.

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