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Glenn Spencer

Hype!!!
« on: February 02, 2006, 03:52:29 PM »
What course did not live up to either the design hype or ranking hype in your mind?

Jordan Wall

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 03:54:57 PM »
First I would like to say I wonder what people will say about Sebonac.

Kaanapali was not the greatest course though it was (thankfully) somewhat cheap.

Kapalua Bay was not the best either, many so-so holes.

I was hoping both courses would be better!

I have not played many of the bigger courses like some of you guys, but thats it for me!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 03:57:06 PM »
Pacific Dunes.  Please note that is one hell of alot of hype to live up to.  I just think there are far too many resort design concessions to make it the second best course built since 1960.  I wish they would just put up red stakes everywhere you are supposed to play as a lateral hazard instead of just pretending.  I can also see many of the same greens at Quail Crossing in Indiana for $17....Little over hyped for me, but that may just be because I hang out here far too much.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 04:15:48 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 04:01:03 PM »
2 stick out in my mind. Muirfield Village and Carnoustie.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 04:03:19 PM »
I was going to say Cuscowilla but the locals and Golf Digest don't really hype the place at all...so it is a case of Golfweek/GolfClubAtlas over hype.  I personally thought the greens were off scale, the strategy non-existent, the bunkers poorly constructed and the routing questionable.  

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 04:14:02 PM »
Shinnecock Hills.  Only played once but it wasn't what I expected, plus I think its next door neighbor NGLA is far superior.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 04:15:43 PM »
John, it's really hard for me to imagine that you aren't just rabble rousing. I can believe those two didn't live up to the hype - what could? - but I'd be surprised if they didn't come close.

Everyone knows my disappointment, and I don't want to further rub salt into the wound by disclosing it to the newbies. :)

Actually, Mystic Rock is probably my biggest disappointment - I expected more out of my first Pete Dye course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 04:17:38 PM »
The Prince Course at Princeville..

John Kavanaugh

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 04:21:36 PM »
John, it's really hard for me to imagine that you aren't just rabble rousing. I can believe those two didn't live up to the hype - what could? - but I'd be surprised if they didn't come close.

Everyone knows my disappointment, and I don't want to further rub salt into the wound by disclosing it to the newbies. :)

Actually, Mystic Rock is probably my biggest disappointment - I expected more out of my first Pete Dye course.

George,

I am not rebel rousing about Pacific Dunes.  I think the back nine could have been far more interesting without four par 3's and a couple of too short par 5's.  I just don't get the place like other people must.  As far as the scope of the entire resort I don't think the place was over hyped at all...I just don't find Pacific that outstandlandish.  I think the routing is the oceans whore at the expense of what could have been better features found on the ground which partly explains why Bandon Trails is my favorite course of the three that currently exist.  

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 04:57:44 PM »
Biggest disappointment for me is Turnberry without a doubt.  I had high expectations, but the course didn't have nearly enough great holes to be a great course.  I don't blame the ocean though.  Three of the best holes are on the sea: #s 4, 8 & 10.

My biggest disappointment in The States is easliy Pine Needles.  Very hyped with the recent redo and all, but it ain't all that.  Good for sure, but not even close to some of Ross's best.  I really didn't like the holes dogleggib around trees and with bunkers on the inside corner.  I don't understand the point.  I reckon it one of those overkill situations where less is more.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2006, 05:04:43 PM »
Kelly, that post is a real shocker.  Were you told that they would be handing out 100 dollar bills at the turn or something? How could Shinnecock not live up to any reasonable expectation?

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 05:09:54 PM »
Alex,

I think there are certain elements that separate some courses from others, elements like what I found at NGLA and TOC, but not really at Shinnecock, except for some of what I told was original McDonald, otherwise many of the holes had a more modern feel, if you removed the rustic grasses it would be more conventional stuff like you might expect from Flynn.

redanman

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2006, 05:19:38 PM »
Did not live up to its hype?  ....just a few, I don't listen to hype any more.


Muirfield Village (over-glorified housing track)


On second thought - no, just one after really thinking about it;  I decided not to (post edited before posting), it's counter-productive if I list any of the ones that are sacred cows around here. I'll just kick poor old MV one more time.  Underwhelming.


Sandman

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2006, 05:24:20 PM »
WHO DARE TO USE BLASPHEMY ON THIS SITE?????????

Shinnecock not what you expected?   Perhaps the wind was too strong that day or you found the high roughs too menacing???

All kidding aside............you can have a much more enjoyable day golfing at NGLA where you can PLAY the course, use every club in your bag and still be challenged.  Playing Shinnecock is like having Mike Tyson in your face all day, it was special but man it beat the hell out of you....................
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 05:26:07 PM by Carl Spackler »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2006, 06:20:52 PM »
Unquestionably for me, Pinehurst #2!

It was the most disappointing experience of my golfing life. I don't see the challenge or strategic values in it that should place it among the 10 best. A very good course, but for me, not great, and definitely not worth the hotel stay.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2006, 06:33:47 PM »
Shinnecock Hills.  Only played once but it wasn't what I expected, plus I think its next door neighbor NGLA is far superior.

?

Wow.

Kelly - did Shinnecock eat your lunch? ;)

Can't comment on NGLA, but Shinny is easily in the top 5 in the world for me.

I am just at a loss for words.

Can you elaborate?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 06:34:14 PM by Voytek Wilczak »

wsmorrison

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2006, 06:38:00 PM »
"I think there are certain elements that separate some courses from others, elements like what I found at NGLA and TOC, but not really at Shinnecock, except for some of what I told was original McDonald, otherwise many of the holes had a more modern feel, if you removed the rustic grasses it would be more conventional stuff like you might expect from Flynn."

I am a bit surprised, but respect your opinion.  I don't know what you were told is original Macdonald (or McDonald for that matter ;)  But there is little if any Macdonald there at all.  None of the greens are Macdonald.  The closest there is to a Macdonald hole is #3 but Flynn moved the tee to the left of 2 green and changed the angle of the tee shot and redid the bunkering and the green.  Seven green and nine green are in the original locations but were completely rebuilt and have different tees.  

Which holes did you like?  I think 11 is one of the great par 3s in golf, 6 and 14 are two of the great par 4s in golf with one of the greatest tee shots in all of golf and 16 is one of the best par 5s in golf.  There is a lot of excellence there in my mind.  Nothing but great holes that look natural and not contrived.  No dramatic internal contours to defend with but rather the greens have subtle complexities of slope and fall-offs that dictate shots back to the tee.

As for a modern feel, I simply never feel that way, especially with that clubhouse in sight most of the time.  And have a hard time believing anything more than a small fraction of golfers feel.  The greens blend into their surrounds better than modern courses, the bunkering has evolved from Flynn's superior look but are finished very well and are positioned very well.  The course has remained a challenge to the best golfers (without the need to resort to extreme maintenance practices) and that is something the course next door has not done for decades.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 01:12:54 AM »
I'll go along with Sean Arbie on Turnberry.  I wouldn't say I'm disappointed, it is a fun course but just doesn't have the challenge and thought required when playing most of the other big name (and more than a few little name) Scottish courses.  It doesn't rise to the level of a truly great course.

I have never been able to figure out why it is ranked where it is, I think the spectacular views and a bit of "well everyone else thinks its good so I shouldn't rock the boat".  I liken it to how many in GCA seem to look down on Old Head, which I really think its underrated on GCA (and probably ranked correctly by everyone else)

I wonder if being the site of the epic Nicklaus/Watson battle in '77 isn't good for about 40 places on the Top 100?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2006, 07:24:00 AM »
Wayne,

I was told the 2nd green was an original and was the green for a par 5, and was a MacDonald.  The holes I like a lot were 6, 8, 11 and 16 and none of the others really stood out.  The more I thought about it I remember my biggest disappointment were in the greens.  Having only played it once the subtlety of the slopes affecting decisions all the way to the tee, which is a grandiose accomplishment anywhere, was completely lost on me.  I know people say it is great and that the subtlety of the greens must be appreciated but it just didn't catch me the first time around.  The first time I played Dornoch I had much the same feeling, but I stayed around for two more rounds out of fear there was something wrong with me, actually my third round was unscheduled,  and after the third round I really started to find the course.  NGLA on the otherhand captures your enthusiasm the first time out, there is no doubting that it is a very specail place once you walk off the first tee.  Shinnecock was never better, other than the holes I mentioned, than on the first tee looking at the clubhouse and down the first tee.  I was so pumped up I nearly ran down the first fairway, and I played very well in a sustained 40 mph wind which I never really noticed.  The finishing holes 9 and 18 up the hill other than the view of the clubhouse were not much fun.  

I was thinking about my modern comment.  The only way I can explain it is to say that at Shinnecock you get the feeling it could have been created today for the most part, that the course is within the possibility of being created today, while NGLA and a few others you immediately know that there is no one alive today that could create that, or at least that is the sense you have that it is so special it is beyond the mindset of the modern architect.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 07:39:26 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2006, 07:35:30 AM »
This thread coulda been somebody.
However, in our politically correct highly charged atmosphere, the responses, (from all but Barney) are likely to be muted.

I know I want to mention a certain course where the night before, a disertation of sorts, was well received with great expectations. BIG MISTAKE!
Firstly, why allow for the over expectations to creep-in? ...and then there's the loss of credibility for the hype-r.  

It's almost as though the marketers have zero respect for the savvy of the masses, so they have to tell them what to think.
What a pity!

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2006, 07:55:39 AM »
Ballyowen in NJ got my vote last year.  A couple of memorable holes on the front (2,3 and 9), and I can't remember a thing of the holes on the back expect 18.

I may need to play that again to see what all the fuss in NJ is about.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2006, 07:59:25 AM »

I know I want to mention a certain course where the night before, a disertation of sorts, was well received with great expectations. BIG MISTAKE!
Firstly, why allow for the over expectations to creep-in? ...and then there's the loss of credibility for the hype-r.  



Adam,

Did I do that...not a disertation...not during a poker game..

wsmorrison

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2006, 08:03:15 AM »
Kelly, fair enough.  Thank you for the explanation.  I hope you didn't think I was calling you out for your opinion, it was just so far removed from my own that I was curious to know what more about what you were thinking.  

The second green is Flynn as is the bunkering and the tee.  That doesn't leave much for Macdonald.  You are right though, Flynn's second green was built on the spot of Macdonald's twelfth green.  Macdonald's green was square and directly in line with the line of play from a slightly different angle than the current hole.  Flynn's green has a free-flowing outline extended in the front and a rear right lobe behind the bunkers.  Flynn has 6 bunkers around the green while Macdonald had two very small pot bunkers short right and shorter left of the green.

There was such little naturalism in Macdonald's courses, actually NGLA has far more than anywhere else, and even less so in Raynor courses.  If anything the design evolution got more manufactured looking.  While the playability and shot values are excellent, the look is not--to me at any rate.  Also, the lack of angles on many Macdonald and Raynor holes (save Road holdes and Redans) are a detriment to me.  Most of their greens are not offset to the line of play and while holes like the Bottle dictate angles into the green, there just aren't enough.  The angle of the tee at Shinnecock and 1 and 14 especially are superior in my mind.  Throw in deceptions with ideal angles being played on the outside of doglegs and I think there is a big edge to Flynn.  Give me a natural looking golf course any time.  

Maybe we can play SHGC together sometime, that would be fun.  but let's play NGLA first  ;)

A_Clay_Man

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2006, 08:18:38 AM »
No John, It wasnt you. The course in question is in much warmer climes.

Even the letter you showed me in the locker room, didn't detract from the quality of your course.

Honestly, it would've been much better if the speaker didnt say a frick'in word. Referencing the architect's care for the visual impact of homes, was entirely discounted when the in-roads were ridiculously prominent on the pars threes. Getting lost following the cart path didn't help either.


John Kavanaugh

Re:Hype!!!
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2006, 08:27:06 AM »
Adam,

Did I show you the letter from Ernie Ransome...I have to admit I am pretty proud of that thing.  This little game you are playing with the other course is fun...How about some more hints..

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