News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« on: February 02, 2006, 01:03:52 PM »
The few times I've been to Merion, I always find myself thinking
what an amazing, efficient job Hugh Wilson did there. What particularly impresses me is that it was his first effort! From what I understand, he
basically went overseas , studied courses for a short time, came back, and laid out his masterpiece. No apprenticeship to draw upon. Few local courses to study--certainly nothing that you'd called great.
And no prior experience with golf course design. It blows my mind
how good of a job he did. Even the so-called world-renowned experts are hard-pressed to come up with any potential improvements to the course.

What made Wilson so uniquely capable the first time out? Admittedly, the site on which he built is very good, save for the lack of acreage. And if you discount Crump's effort as more  "design-by-committee" , why in 90 years, has there not been another first effort of such quality (At least that I'm aware of)?

This leads me to my main question: what are the best "first courses" of the modern age? Does Nicklaus get credit for Harbourtowne? Was Stonewall Doak's first? The Kingsley Club gets good reviews here. Was that Devries' first effort? Inniscrone is also good, despite some site
challenges.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 02:02:13 PM by Craig_Rokke »
Logged

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 01:30:24 PM »
The Kingsley Club was Mike DeVries first solo design and firmly belongs on the list of best first designs.  The routing of the front nine is pure genius.  

I think what common trait a lot of the top modern designers share is that they apprenticed under and learned from some of the best.  DeVries and Hanse worked with Doak.  Doak worked with Pete Dye.
Logged

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 01:36:05 PM »
Stonewall was not Doak's first solo design.  I believe it was High Pointe.

Kapalua - Plantation might be C&C's first design (either that or Barton Creek - both opened in 1991, but K-P is listed first on their web site)
Logged

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 01:39:37 PM »

That David Kidd fellow had a pretty good first one.

Devries also worked for Fazio for a bit I thought.  Wasn't Pilgrims Run his first? Or was that not a solo deal.

Logged

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 01:49:08 PM »
DeVries was brought into the Pilgrim's Run project after clearing and construction had already begun.  Originally, it was basically a design by committee as six employees of the owner designed 3 holes each.  DeVries was brought in to build the bunkers and give the overall project some uniformity.

Logged

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 01:54:16 PM »
Another strong debut from a modern architect is Black Sheep Golf Club, the men's club outside of Chicago.  It is the work of David Esler.  

Logged

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 02:18:29 PM »
Archie Struthers at Twisted Dune.
Logged

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 02:28:00 PM »
I'd agree on Twisted Dune being a very good first effort.  Can we expect an encore?
Logged

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 02:41:19 PM »
I'm not qualified to comment on these contemporary courses as I do not know them, but I don't doubt they are equally impressive as those that I know from the so-called classical age.  I agree with you about Merion - I was lucky enough to walk round it last summer.  Over here we have Rye (Colt), Alwoodley (MacKenzie), Worplesdon (Abercromby), Walton Heath (Fowler) and I'm sure there are others.  They certainly are testament to the vision of gifted men.  That they went on to produce further masterpieces (some of them in some quantity) is remarkable.  Thankfully our Doaks, C&Cs and so on do not seem to have lost their enthusiasm to strive for ever more fascinating courses.
Logged

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 03:08:19 PM »
Muirfield Village
Logged
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

wsmorrison

Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2006, 03:45:59 PM »
Not meaning to burst any bubbles, but the Merion of today (or 60 years ago for that matter) was not the Merion of 1912.  It has a fascinating architectural evolution that was refined over nearly thirty years.  The routing (save for 10-13) was the same but greens were moved (8) and redesigned as was the entire bunker scheme.  It was regarded as great from the beginning, it just got a lot better.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 03:46:22 PM by Wayne Morrison »
Logged

Andy Scanlon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 03:50:46 PM »
Also agree re Twisted Dune.

How about Whisper Rock in Scottsdale?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 03:51:24 PM by Andy Scanlon »
Logged
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2006, 05:22:21 PM »
Wasn't Crooked Stick Pete Dye's first?
Logged
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2006, 10:04:24 PM »
I believe that Caledonia was Mike Strantz's first complete solo; a strong start, to put it mildly.
Logged
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2006, 10:11:57 PM »
A G

I played Caledonia a year or two after it opened, and regret not having made it back. Its another example of a very
good design on limited acreage.
Logged

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2006, 07:43:21 AM »
While it hasn't happened, yet. I'll speculate Mike Nuzzo's first solo design will have built on the shoulders of giants.
Logged

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2006, 01:41:37 PM »
Quote from: jim_lewis on February 02, 2006, 05:22:21 PM
Wasn't Crooked Stick Pete Dye's first?
Nope.
I believe however it was his first after his trip to the British Isles and had a rebirth in his architecture.
Logged
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 01:47:37 PM »
Quote
I believe that Caledonia was Mike Strantz's first complete solo; a strong start, to put it mildly.
AG, you have 4 hours to kill, which entrance do you turn into--Caledonia or True Blue?
Logged
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2006, 02:17:46 PM »
I believe that Dye did a 9 hole course in Indiana and his first 18 was Wabeeke in Michigan.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Logged
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2006, 02:48:56 PM »
Quote from: Andy Hughes on February 03, 2006, 01:47:37 PM
Quote
I believe that Caledonia was Mike Strantz's first complete solo; a strong start, to put it mildly.
AG, you have 4 hours to kill, which entrance do you turn into--Caledonia or True Blue?

This is a tough one!  I think the answer is True Blue for me personally, but it is not only a razor's edge close call, but I would be perfectly happy to have it be the other way.  Totally different courses, both great.  That they are across the street from each other is testimony to Strantz's vision.
Logged
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2006, 06:57:49 PM »
The problem with this exercise is that itīs hard to define what counts as someoneīs first solo design, and there is a tendency to overlook "lower budget" first designs in order to use a better course they did second or third.

Likewise, Rye was Harry Coltīs first design, but not Rye as we know it today.
Logged

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2006, 11:26:50 PM »
Obviously I'm biased, but Paul Cowley's solo effort at Orchard Creek in Altamont, NY deserves mention.  A solid, strategic and fun golf course that was built within a very modest budget.  It met all the owner's needs and has been quite a successful project.

Logged

Chris Moore

Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2006, 11:55:15 PM »
Was Kingsbarns Kyle Phillips' first effort?
Logged

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2006, 06:45:23 AM »
Craighead Golf Links - Gill Hanse

Is it really posible today for anyones first design to be the first thing they ever did?  Really Pete Dye maybe the last architect that just went out and started working on his own projects and built a career of substance.

Doak worked for Dye
Hanse worked for Doak
Stranz worked for Fazio
Nicklaus worked with Muirhead
Logged
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Wayne Hewitt

Re:Best First-Course Designs of the Modern Age?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2006, 08:17:03 AM »
Quote from: Chris Moore on February 03, 2006, 11:55:15 PM
Was Kingsbarns Kyle Phillips' first effort?


Kingsbarns was a co-design.

I think he did the majority of the design, but with a fair bit of help from Mark Parsinen. Along with some wisdom from the gr8 one himself Mr. T Doak ( hi Tom,  ;D ).

I have no idea what his first design would have been. He has done so many its hard to tell. Only Kyle could answer that one I think.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back