[Adam_F_Collins]

Golf courses are having a tough go of it in terms of money-making in this region. However, the ones that seem to be doing really well in comparison to the norm are the executive par 3 courses or the par 3's.

What are you seeing in your region? Are these on the rise? Do more people want a quick, more relaxed round of golf that the short course can provide? How much investment is typically put into these courses?

[Jordan Wall]

Actually, Adam, I dont know if I could agree more!  Some of my most enjoyable, stress free rounds, are at par three courses.  Actually theres only one par three course I play, but I love it.  It is cheap, so I dont know if you could justify that it makes more money, but I think it's safe to say it gets a lot of rounds in.

Plus I feel par three courses offer kids to get into and enjoy golf at a young age, which is always good.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I would love to see an executive course in my area (Westchester, NY) as I think it would do quite well.  There was a thread which detailed a par 3 course where each hole was designed by a different architect (for free!).  It looks quite interesting and would certainly help get people into golf and GCA.

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
If you take a quick moment and look at feature interview I did with Ran, you will see the alternative golf facility I designed in Bethlehem.  I am very excited about the concept and we expect to build many more like it.  It just makes sense and the kids (and adults) love it.  It's cost effective and the space it takes up is minimal.  The future of golf - I don't think so, but it will introduce a lot of kids and adults to the game of golf that they otherwise would never play.  It is fun for everyone.
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Dave,
The numbers are tough to make work on a typical par three course.  The courses are fun but financially they are a big stretch to justify.
Mark

[Steve_ Shaffer]

There are at least 4 in the Phoenix area. Mountain Shadows, Sun Village, Ahwahtukee Lakes & The Lakes at Palm Valley. They are great for juniors, seniors and those interested in a less than 3 hour round or those interested in working on their irons and/or walking.

In Philadelphia, the munis at Juniata& Walnut Lane accomplish the same mission as do some suburban short courses- Horsham Valley, Fairways, Twining Valley & Woodies. The ones here seem to do a nice business.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Mark,

I think you are right.  Especially here where the land costs are insane.  My thought is that a good par three course would get a good amount of play.  I didn't think about the reality (this is often the case) of it and how a developer would make a great deal more money putting housing on 60 acres instead of a par 3 course.

I'm going to read the interview as well.....Birdie Balls rule!

 

[Mark Brown]

Why the game isn't growing -- straight from the Golf 20/20 Symposium in Oct., 2004

1. Takes too much time
2. Costs too much
3. Difficult to learn the way it's being taught
4. The difficulty of most courses -- particularly new ones
5. Intimidation factor for new golfers

I don't purposely want to promote a business, but if you want a solution that addresses all the above issues in detail
visit www.prestwick12golf.com

If we don't get creative and spend money on alternative golf facilities the game won't grow and the industry realizes this.
 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mark,
I like your ideology.
How would you say hiring Prestwick 12 differs from hiring Ian Andrew for a 12 hole course?
Thanks

Adam,
What are the profit margins on these types of courses?
What is really well?

Cheers

Jordan -
The following is meant to be light...
Why would your stress level be any different?
You're on a golf course either way.

Personally they are really fun, and something like the short course at Augusta or Friar's on a reasonable budget would be a blast.  But for me only in small doses.

Cheers

[Mark Brown]

Mike,

Good question. With Prestwick 12 the course is just part of the solution as explained below:
1. Two 6-hole loops which isn't anything new -- but it allows a group to play in about 1 hour and 20 minutes.

2. The holes will be regulation but there won't be anywhere to lose balls, fairway bunkers will only be for definition and direction. We'll use shaping to create interest and challenge.
Walking will be the norm

3. A 20-acre Learning & Practice Facility that will have all the normal stuff -- but teaching for all new golfers will include a class or 2 to teach them etiquette and all the nuances of the game and remove the intimidation factor.

We have a simpler proven method of teaching and lessons will include 1 or 2 playing lessons.

Each market's needs will be fulfilled -- like baby-sitting on two mornings a week for women, real short tees for kids, women and seniors.

The golf shop staff will be geared to assist new golfers

Markets: women, couples, families, father-son, seniors, juniors

We want to make golf more fun for more people -- bring new golfers in and increase play of occasional golfers.

We may have a miniature golf course for kids and the grille room will be for everyone with big screen tvs. A place to gather and bring people together for fun -- burgers, a dogs,
wings etc.

[Forrest Richardson]

We are beginning to see $$$ put where developers never wanted to go. At present we are working on three short courses:

A par-60 in Utah which will share stage with Nicklaue, Dye and Weiskopf

A par-55 in Phoenix, which is a re-make of Arthur Jack Snyder's famous Mountain Shadows — 18 holes on 49 acres (with a small range)

A 9-hole par-31 in Denver which shares a site with a new 18-hole; the 9-hole will be for kids, working moms/dads and a quick round any morning or afternoon

Each of these is rather high-end in terms of the developer profile. When you see investment being made at the top, it filters down. Of course, it may well be that hints have been taken by the higher end!

[Adam_F_Collins]

Adam,
What are the profit margins on these types of courses?
What is really well?

I don't know their numbers, Mike. I'm just making observations from a golfer perspective. But here's what I see:

The regulation 18's here are all struggling to keep their books balanced. However, there is a low-end, public executive course near town which started with nine, built nine more and is now talking about building another 18 because their doing so well. It costs about $24 CDN to play 18 and is always fairly busy with new players, couples and people sneaking out of work early for a quick loop.

There is one high-end executive which caters to juniors and women which is doing well. Busy all the time. No rumors of difficulty. It costs $50 CDN to play 18.

Glen Arbour - a high-end daily fee has a nine hole par three which costs $12-$15 per 9. It has become more and more popular over the years as well.

The attraction appears to be:

Time
Money
Lack of stress which equates to more fun

[Mark_Fine]

We can build a nine hole course that allows you to hit every club in your bag on less than three acres of land.  That is a whole different golf paradigm.  We will be building golf courses where no one every dreamed of building golf courses.  They will compliment the game of golf, not compete with it.  We have already secured support and funding to develop these courses from the USGA as well as The First Tee.  The first one is almost finished and opens this spring in the Lehigh Valley.  It is exciting and will directly address all those issues that Mark Brown raised in his Golf 20/20 points.
Mark

[Adam_F_Collins]

We can build a nine hole course that allows you to hit every club in your bag on less than three acres of land.

What?

[Mark_Fine]

Yes we can, and believe it or not it is safe as well    My son and I played our three hole course at Bethlehem the other day and that one is on about an acre.  It's really fun!

[Forrest Richardson]

No golf course is "safe"...

[Mark Brown]

Forrest,

Congrats for breaking thru with your innovative courses. If possible I'll work in a visit on a trip. Lord knows we need a lot more of these courses built on small budgets. We're shooting for $20 to $25 green fees for our 12 holers.

[Forrest Richardson]

That $$ range is going to be easily had at the Denver project (9-holes will probably be $5 for kids and $15 for adults.) But the Utah and Phoenix projects are very high end developments. Everything is relative, so I suspect the cost will be viewed as "low" by those who are members.

The ASGCA has an excellent book called PRACTICAL GOLF FACILITIES. It was just re-published and is full of alternative facilities, case studies, etc.

[Michael Robin]

Forrest - Is the Utah project part of Promontory? If it is, that's quite a place they have brewing up there.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes. Promontory — The Ranch Club. The working name for our course is...ready for this..."The Short Course." I am weighing in on this as we post. The course should be very fun. I am in the middle of green designs at present. We should begin shaping after snow...March probably.

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest,
You are correct about "safe" from the standpoint of getting wacked with a club.  But at least the golf ball won't hurt you  
Mark

[Forrest Richardson]

The golf ball is not likely to hurt me — I have a hard head!

But...I am an expert witness currently on two injury cases. One involving loss of sight in one eye; the other a head injury where the victim was not seriously injured. However...errant ball cases are on the rise. I cannot wait until a ball manufacturer is brought into a case.

[Brian Phillips]

Graeme Webster is my partner in Aberdeen runs the Scottish side of the business with Team Niblick. He designed and built the complex below in Aberdeen.  It opened last year and is doing very well.



Some of the holes are played as Par 4's for juniors while for adults it is a great Par 3 course.  Paul Lawrie uses the driving range for training.

Cheers,

Brian Phillips.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brian - that looks REALLY cool.  Just a few questions:

1.  Stupid question, I know - but why only 8 holes?  Seems like there's room for 9.  Don't Scots care about the "sanctity" of 9-holes for a partial round?  We have lots of par threes and execs here in CA, USA, and none are less than 9 holes... though I've often thought at least a few would be better served with 8 or less great holes rather than 9 just to have 9.  Is that's what's going on here?

2.  How do the fees work?  A weakness of too many around me, as I see it, is they feel compelled to charge a fee to use the short-game practice area.  I understand why they have to as they have to derive some income from usage - but still as a consumer it pisses me off.  How does it work over there?

I've long been an advocate of places like this, and really wish we had more.  Land is just so damn expensive, man I think small plots like this could really do well - better than horrid full-size courses anyway.  My submission to My Home Course here is only half tongue-in-cheek - it is a 9-hole par 28 near me.  

I'd say if a place like your diagram here was near me, I'd spend a LOT of time there.  

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

If nine holes were to be built in one go then an Enviromental Impact Study would have to have been done.  Eight holes were built to avoid this.

The ninth hole has been built between the 6th green and 7th tees.  That area was left until the project received permission.

Greenfees are...now get this...£10 for a round and £7 for juniors under 12.

Not sure what the score is for the short game area.  I will have to get back to you.  

Brian

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