[Mark_F]

I finally managed to play Barnbougle Dunes this past week, in what must have been dream conditions - mostly still-ish, with only a light breeze constantly changing direction the two days I was there.

It's exactly like many of the far-flung links one finds in the UK - a narrow strip of dunes at the edge of a small town miles from anywhere, the tangy whiff of the sea, the crashing of the waves nearby, the kangaroo turds on the fairways - and I can't help but wonder if some of this nostalgia and romance is responsible for much of the gushing over the place.

To be sure, it is a great destination, but is it THAT special as a golf course?

I thought the 7th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 17th were brilliant, the 3rd and 14th very good, the 2nd poor and the 8th poor/awkward, with the rest okay but nothing special - although the 4th I am not sure of yet.

The back nine is clearly superior to the front, with much better greens, but I left wondering how Mike Clayton could say that it is the first course to challenge the status of RM as this country's finest. Top Ten yes, but closer to ten than Top Five.

The 12th and 15th are much better short par fours than RM's, 7 is a better par three than 5 or 7 RM West, but there isn't a long/medium four even remotely as good as the 6th or 17th RM West. The 17th at Barnbougle is probably the closest, but I'd hesitate to say even that is as good as 11 or 12 at RM West.

Like Philip Gawith, I found the fuzziness of the turf irritating, especially around the greens.  I didn't feel there was the short game options on offer as there usually is on similar type courses, because a pitch, or possibly a bump and run was all you could do within 20-30 yards off many of the greens.  

I also wonder whether the fescue greens are going to work.  There were quite a few that were very dried out and bumpy, as Tasmania, contrary to popular thought, was bloody hot.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

I am one of Royal Melbourne's biggest fans - but I do think Barnbougle does have enough great holes to suggest its gets closer to RM that any other course in the country.
I have never suggested it's better - it isn't.
As you point out there are great holes at 7,12,13,15 and 17.
How many other courses in Australia have so many unique and great holes? Royal Melbourne has 2,3,4,5,6,7,10,11,12,16 and 17 - and is miles ahead of the rest.
NSW has 13 and 14 and maybe 15.
Royal Adelaide has 3,6,14.
Kingston Heath is either our 2nd or 3rd best course but it's arguably got only one world-class hole - the 15th.
That it is such a fine course is testement to the fantastic overall quality of the work and the holes.

I will never understand why the 2nd  at Barnbougle is described by so many as 'poor'
You need to come up with a good reason why.
It is on the dullest piece of land on the property but I fail to see any architectural fault that remotely classes it as poor.
The 3rd at NSW is a poor hole on a terrific course because the tee shot is so bad but the 2nd is just a solid hole with what I think is a very good green.
Sure,it's the 'least good' hole on the course but every course has one of those.

4 surely is about as much fun as you can have on a short par four.
 With no wind you can carry the bunker. Into the wind you lay back and the correct shot and line is entirely determined by the position of the pin.If its left behind the dune you go right but if it's left you go 70 yards further to the left to open up a view of the pin and the best line.
6,9 and 18 are surely better than just good holes - as good as the best holes on almost all of our best courses.

Nor do I agree that 12 and 15 at BD are 'much better' short par fours than RM.
10 at RM is a better hole than 12 at BD and arguably better than 4 (which I think is better than 12)
Is 7 at BD better than 5 W and 7 W?
I'm not sure about that either.

I have not seen the course or a few months - I'm playing the pro-am on 15th of Feb. - so I will be interested to see the state of the greens.They are normally longer in summer than winter.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Hey, you gave us credit for six or seven of the best holes in Australia.  I'll take that.

I think the course is special regardless, but I think you are right that Barnbougle gets "extra credit" because it is the only links of its kind in that hemisphere and that appeals to links-starved Australians AND American visitors.

But, what you say is equally true for lots of other highly-regarded courses.  Paraparaumu wouldn't be very highly regarded if it was across the street from Prestwick.  If you could trade Morfontaine for St. George's Hill even up, you would, but the French course always comes out higher in rankings because it has the cachet of being near Paris and not heathland-rich London.  A lot of Scots think Rosemount is a great course!  What's unusual and different and cool in one locale is commonplace in another.

Everyone I've heard from who has played Cape Kidnappers and Barnbougle has preferred Barnbougle, yet Kidnappers was rated higher in the magazine poll -- I think that's because the clifftops are really more unique to the world of golf than the links, and not because of anything we did better or worse at one or the other.  So I don't lose much sleep over those rankings.

Just curious, which would you rate higher -- Barnbougle or Gunnamatta?

P.S.  Being "not sure" of the fourth is because it is the best hole of the lot.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike Clayton,

I have never met you, or even spoken to you, but from what you have written here on GCA and elsewhere, I would take your word as gospel.

I do hope that one day I can visit Oz again, or that you can come here as my guest and I can show you some stuff on the West Coast.

Of course, you would have to give a free lesson.

Bob

[Mike_Clayton]

Bob,

Thanks. I do look forward to getting back there in the next year or so.
I'm not so sure that you should be taking my work as gospel or wanting a lesson!

[Mark_F]

Mike,

Don't worry, I know you have not suggested Barnbougle is better than RM - I was merely referencing a few lines that Martin Blake wrote about Barnbougle - "Clayton regards it as the first new course to challenge Royal Melbourne's status as Australia's best."

The 2nd hole is poor for a number of reasons, land being one of them, but then the land doeth maketh the hole, does it not?

The bunkers don't look like they belong.  I would be surprised if there was a natural pocket or swell where they were constructed; they simply look like they were placed there because they were needed there.

I quite like the green, but the green complex seemed similar to a number on courses I've played in the UK, so it didn't grab me.

As to architectural merit, I don't see why a lack of architectural fault necessarily makes it acceptable.  Otherwise, the Road Hole surely couldn't be classified as a great hole, because it has nothing going for it from a 'proper' architectural perspective, does it?

I understood the strategy of 4, I'm just not entirely sure of it, that's all.  You say with no wind 'carry the bunker' with the nonchalance of one for whom even your best pop-up drive is going to make it over.  At 215 metres to carry, I would think that 90% of golfers won't even think about it; into the standard 2-3 club wind, I would guess that 95% won't even think about it.

I would have said that the most precise drive on 4 would be as close to the left side of the bunker as possible - something achievable by far more golfers than carrying it - yet you don't really get that much of a reward, because the dune the bunker is carved into blocks off the bottom of the pin on the right-hand side (which I don't have a problem with), but the left-hand dune blocks off that location too.  If the 'best' pin position is left, then power gets the nod over precision?

Maybe it is a hole best played with a wooden driver.

I disagree with your assessment of 6,9 and 18.  You'll need to come up with a good reason why (they are surely better than good holes).

If you transplanted any of them to the UK, they wouldn't get a second glance. 9 in particular to me seemed strangely undramatic; I played to different parts of the fairways during my various rounds because I wasn't interested in scoring, just what the approach shots etc would be like from different angles, and the second to 9 did nothing for me no matter where I was.  

But at least I'm not bagging 8.

[Mark_F]

Tom,

I do think Barnbougle is a 'special place'.  I enjoyed my rounds there, the location is fantastic, the staff brilliant, I just think these extrinsic factors cloud people's perceptions.

It's a great course regardless of whether it is thought better than Kidnappers or KH. I loved the holes I mentioned.  I also liked the 1st, especially the ridge that runs into the green, which you can use to bounce balls into the correct part of the green.  

Why is the 4th the best of the lot?  I thought the 12th green and green complex had miles more interest, and would require much more precision to drive, whilst 15 was all out brilliant, from location, through to choice from the tee, second shot, short game etc.

Come on - Gunnamatta is a lot better.  And once you rebuild the 16th hole, put the tee on 13 in it's proper place and fill in the left hand side fairway bunker on 14 and move it into a location it might actually influence play - ie. tumbling off the left hand edge of the apron where the green surround meet the fairway - Gunnamatta will be miles better.

Then you will have 10 or 11 of the best holes in Australia right there, and 18 or so all up.  Not a bad batting average for a few weeks' work.  

[Chris Kane]

Mark, anyone who thinks the Gunnamatta is better than Barnbougle is either on drugs, or a member of St Andrews Beach.    

I have much affection for it, but Gunnamatta has one (1) truly world-class hole, the 2nd.  The rest of the course is comprised of very good holes, but nothing outstanding.  That said, nothing comes close to being a bad hole  Mike Clayton had it right when he ranked it at 7 - its the best course outside the five traditional greats and Barnbougle.

There is no way that the course will ever have 10 or 11 of Australia's best holes in something resembling its current guise.

In contrast, Barnbougle has several world-class holes - 7, 12, 13, 15, 17.  I agree with you about 4 - it takes a wonderful photo but 95% of golfers playing the course couldn't carry the ball 215m, even with their best drive.  Downwind its probably a better hole, as driving over the bunker becomes realistic for mere mortals.    

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mark,
When you so vigorously defended Gunnamatta against National Moonah, I wish I had known you would feel this way about Barnbougle, because it would have explained a lot.

I cannot believe some of the language you used to describe holes like six - "If you transplanted any of them to the UK, they wouldn't get a second glance."

Really? Six stands out in my mind as an almost perfect bridge to some really difficult land. I cannot think of many par fours in the UK that are in its league, let alone making it not worthy of a second glance.

How is eight awkward? I do not understand?

As for comparisons to RM, I think BD 7th is better than RM 7th, every day of the week. RM's 10th is better in my mind than BD's fourth, mainly because of the multiple options the hole provides through 170 yards in. BD leaves you either in bowl or up top. However, I disagree with your contention about 4. The only way I do not see a better player going for the green every time is if they are playing the wrong tees. I played the back in no wind and went for it, my partner playing from the next tee up also had a go at it. Neither of us are monstrously long. Into the wind, I understand, I could not have gotten there, but unless a good 12 handicapper is either very short or playing the back tees, when one tee up gives them the option, I do not understand the complaint about four.

As for where it ranks in Australia Golf, surely Mike Clayton would be the authority, having played so many. However, I played all of Australia's "best" courses with the exception of Karrinyup (if it even is) and Ellerston. I do not have the same love affair with Kingston Heath as others, but putting Barnbougle in the top five is unquestionable in my mind. I would probably have it at two, but I do not see how anything other than RM, KH, NSW or RA could be talked about ahead of it.

Do your original question. I have played most of the "great" modern courses and the only one I think is clearly better is Sand Hills and I have it among my top five in the world. I greatly preferred BD to CK and SAB and debate it against Pac Dunes in my mind regularly. That means Barnbougle is in the same league as PD, Kingsbarns, Sand Hills and those are special, anywhere in the world.

I wish we had met when I was down under, because discussing golf would have been great and I do respect the kohonas it took to make the post in the first place.

[Michael Robin]

Chris - I was lucky enough to get to Barnbougle for one December round.
It blew so the 4th hole was downwind and I took a rip at the green with the driver and knocked it on. My playing partner took a different route with an iron and a wedge. We both made 4. As I walked off the green I
thought that this was one of the greatest par 4s in golf. And as I finished
my round, I thought it was the best hole on the course. So, yes it's quite a hole downwind!

One of the things I thought was great about the routing was on this day, in
the wind I played in, I had a risk/reward go at three of the par4s - 4, 12
& 15. This wind also made the 2 backside par 5s viscious. I thought this was ingenious, for with the opposite wind I assumed the trends would be reversed and you would get a completely different set of challenges. A course you would never tire of playing.

As for Gunnamatta, I agree the 2nd is world class, but I also thought the 6th was as well, and the 10th is worth Honorable Mention.

[Mark_F]

Chris,

Or knows what they are talking about.

If you rank 17 at Barnbougle as world class, then why not 3 or 10 on Gunnamatta?  Granted, neither have the special elements that make Barnbougle what it is - the backbone of my argument in the first place - but they are still pretty spectacular, and are better in the sense of making you think exactly about what strategy and type of shot you are going to play into the greens, and have far more short game options if (when) you miss. They require much more thought than 17 at Barnbougle.  

Nothing outstanding?  Therein lies the problem Gunnamatta will face.  It has loads of outstanding holes - a lot of them just aren't very 'gettable' - and I'm not saying that to promote myself as some sort of guru who alone has sussed out its mysteries.

It sure has a lot more than KH, NSW, RA or RM East.

Since we seem to agree on what the better holes are, why not fill us in on your opinions on 6, 9, 10 and 18 to name four okay but not great holes.  

Ben:

If you can't think of many par fours in the UK that match six at Barnbougle, then you better play more than one course, take off your sunglasses and stop drinking whisky in the bar the night before.

Brora, to name one minor course, has at least two holes that are miles better than six.  So too has Macrihanish and Silloth on Solway, to name another two.

8 at Barnbougle is awkward because of the options it presents.  High road is easier from the tee - though still a challenge -  because at least you can see that part of the fairway, but then you still have a long forced carry over rough and bunkers from an uneven lie to a green slightly at the wrong angle. And if you decide not to go for it, the lay up is more awkward than from down below.

Go to the lower side, and you can't see most of the fairway from the tee, have a bland lay up into a slight hollow, then a blind pitch.

No one doubts Mike Clayton's cerebral thoughts on all matters golf - I for one always enjoy reading his articles -  but, last time I looked, he was human, and therefore suspect to the same foibles as us all - bias and personal opinion being just two. Just like myself and Gunnamatta.

No doubt you think Canada is a fine country to live in too, and probably better than Oz...

Peter Thomson has surely played as many, if not more, great courses than Mike, is at least his intellectual equal, yet on wonderful land can't even design one course worth playing more than once. Should we therefore never question his judgement on matters golf?

I'm guessing you rank National Moonah pretty highly.  I must have pretty big kohonas, because that is an even more overrated golf course than Barnbougle - although the 3rd, 10th and 11th there are better than all bar the 17th of the long/medium fours at Barnbougle.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

"Granted, neither have the special elements that make Barnbougle what it is - the backbone of my argument in the first place - but they are still pretty spectacular"

This sounds like the "take the sea away from Pebble" argument, which strikes me as pointless.

In defining awkward - you basically described a hole loaded with options that offer clear risk reward. If you go left, you are going for the green in two, if you go right you are not. Therefore, the approach (and lay-up) should be tough from the left, you are taking the more direct line. Similar principles to the 1st at Macrihanish, which I assume you feel is among those great par fours...

I give Mike the benefit of the doubt in the group of posters here, as he has seen the Aussie courses far more than I. I was not saying his opinion is gospel, simply that if he has seen all of the courses 10 times, and he clearly has a sharp eye, and argues about his courses without overt bias, which is clear in your own arguments for Gunnamatta.

I assume your point about my homeland is that we have different opinions? I did not challenge your right to a different opinion, I challenged the language that made Barnbougle seem like a decent to good course.

I do no understand the relevance of Peter Thomson at all to your point. I did not say Mike should never be questioned, nor would I believe Thomson shouldn't. Not sure where you would have read into that.

I do think highly of Moonah. What is your personal top 10 in Australia?

[Danny Goss]

Mark,

I'm surprised at the heading you gave this topic. "Special" because its in Oz is surely part of the appeal.
Its more special than most others we have here - therefore justifying its current status.
Sure we all have our own biases - but yours to your own Club is more noticeable than most - and I dont have a problem with that.
For those of us who dont have a "special" home club - Barnbougle will do me for a great course, ambience, location and style. I just loved #4, #7 #12,#13 and #15 - more than enough to get me back there again and again.
And that makes it special - because its in Oz.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

I don't buy the argument that if a hole is not great,very good or even good, it's poor.
The 2nd asks for two very good shots especially if its into the wind and it must get points for that - although I agree there are terrible holes that ask for great shots.
Shots like the tee shots off 9 at Metropolitan and 3 at NSW and the second shot to 11 at Karrinyup are poor shots that don't work very well but 2 at Barnbougle has nothing like that so I can't agree it's poor.
It is an important part of the jigsaw that gets the golfer from the 1st green to the 3rd tee and some of the best land on he course.

The Road Hole for all its 'flaws' still has one of most thrilling second shot in golf - if not the most thrilling.

The tee shot at 6 confronts the golfer with a significant decision - to carry the sandhill or play left and leave a more difficult second from a poorer angle.
I'm not sure at all that it is easier to play left at eight.All golfers see shots differently but I hit it with a draw and it still looks much easier to play right off the tee.
Nine again has a couple of shots I love hitting.Did you play it from the tee left of the 8th green?
Maybe you would have liked it more from the different angle.
At 18 the second down to the green has to be one of the best looking shots into a final green in the country - great fun to hit that low bouncing fade down the hill and run it around to the flag.

At 14 on the Gunnamatta the tee was supposed to go back 30 yards but a neighbour objected to golfers looking into his house. The tee was never officially built but there is a flat spot back there that brings the left bunker right into play.
Next time you play there go back and hit a tee shot from there - its a much better hole.

[Sean Walsh]

Re 2 as has been said it is on the worst land on the course and is merely a diversion before the strong stretch of 3,4,5,6,7.  It is still a hole that I believe has merit.

For example did you notivce the small hump in front of the bunker.  This hump and the resultant distance perception problems led me take my three wood and try to lay up before it.  When in fact if I had taken Driver clearing it with a well struck shot would not be much of an issue.  Going at the bunker gives you the better shot at the green.  If you play for the middle of the fairway and (for me - a lefty) pull it a touch you find yourself blocked out on the right by the dune on the right of the fairway.  Now as a result you have a blind shot into a green whose contours are doing you know favours from the angle.  Not bad for one of the less good holes on the course.

Re 4 I think if in little wind you aren't at least tempted into going for the green then your probably playing from the wrong set of tees.  (Maybe those big cojones are influencing your tee choice   )

8 is a tough long 4.  I found myself on the bottom tier of the fairway all 4 times I played it (that lefty pull again).  I made it up the ridge 3 of the 4 times.  Once in the bunker, so nearly pin high.  the other 2 finished short and right leaving plenty of work for my bump and run game.  Plenty of interest in that hole for me.  Not outstanding but a good solid tough hole.  

I liken it most in looks and quality to Lahinch.  Not sure where Lahinch ranks in the world but to my mind Barnbougle based on purely the course should be in a similar position.  

The beauty of Barnbougle is that it has all the intrisic stuff nailed.

[David_Elvins]

Mark,

THe 3rd at St Andrews Beach must have the world's best green complex if you are putting it in the same league as 17 at Barnbougle becasue it is so far behind on the tee shot it is not funny.  (BTW. I think the 17th green complex at BD is far better than the 3rd at StAB for what its worth.)  And the 10th at St AB?  3 weeks ago you were saying the size of the green was a major fault of the hole.

As for the 4th.  Put me in the camp that loves it and thinks the bunker is relevant.  It is  200m to carry it from the "members tee".  And down hill.   I play off a mid teen handicap and carried it into a 1.5 club wind from the back tee.  Playing it down wind, a friend I was playing with (off 12) pitched his drive on the back of the green atleast 40-50 metres past the bunker.  I think it is far more relevant than people think.  It must be the only bunker in the world located 200 metres from an elevated tee that people are claiming is not relevant because it is too far away!

[David_Elvins]

BTW, The real strength of Barnbougle is shown by the fact that nobody has yet mentioned the 3rd hole.

Fantastic hole, bordering on world class, would be a stand out on so many courses yet no one has mentioned it in this thread.  

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark,

No one has commented on the bunkering at either St Andrews Beach or Barnbougle. What did you make of the bunkering at Barnbougle? Do you see it as being similar to that at StAB in both style and placement?  For mine, the bunkering at Barnbougle was superior both in placement and appearance to that of StAB.

I'm surprised you thought little of the 9th at Barnbougle - I really like the hole, mainly becasue of the diagonal nature of the tee shot to gain the better angle into the green.

[Matthew Mollica]

Wonderful comments above one and all. Clayts - you're spot on with your summation of the course. Couldn't agree more.

Ben, it makes me sad I didn't meet you when you were here.

Mark, i think that you may be a little harsh on Barny Dunes. 4 is a stellar hole, with many paths to the flag, depending on wind, skill, pin position, and courage to name a few factors.

2 is a very sound and well designed hole, and 6 is wonderful too. Maybe you were just bombing it straight and far, past the dunes and mounds and traps that trouble us mortals?  

If I have a problem with the course, it's 16, which in my mind is a disappointing hole.

8 is tough yet is almost always aided by a helping wind. In 8 games there, I'm cumulatively one over on the hole ( I'm off 9 ) and haven't hit more than 5 iron in there for my second shot.  Having said that, I've never played it into the wind, or in still conditions.

A post above referred to a balance in challenge courtesy of the routing? Wonderful observation. 8,10,11, and 14 all become real scoring options, and ask for different shots, when played with a tailwind. The prevailing wind sees holes 4 and 12 play as half par holes, where one yearns to overcome the elements and make a 3 with a heroic shot into the breeze. What settings for heroism!

David, you are right in that 3 is truly great, with the obliquity of the ridge, and mystery on the optimum line from the tee, its an achievement of which Doak and Clayton should be extremely proud. So too 15.

Bob Huntley- Please come to Australia!

Matthew

[Mark_F]

Ben Dewar:

No, I don't count the first at Macrihanish as one of those great ones.  Once you've made the carry a couple of times, the mystique of the hole is gone for me, and the green isn't anywhere near as interesting as the 2nd or 3rd, for example.

Personal Top 10?

I haven't played enough of them to make that judgement, but National Moonah isn't even close - and it pains me to say that, as the two people whoi took me down there recently are terrific blokes.

Sean:

I never let my cojones get in the way of deciding what works for less well endowed mortals.  I was referencing the hole from the back, but actually played from the middle.

David:

You need a refresher course in short term memory recollection. I have never said the size of the green was the major fault of the 10th hole, because I don't believe that to be the case at all.

I posted that topic in order to get an explanation for a misguided soul who shall remain nameless, who thought that the green is too small - even though at his home course he has an inordinately skinny par three of similar distance to the 2nd shot on 10 at Gunnamatta, where there is absolutely no room to miss it short, left or long, and which said hole is far more likely to be played with a 3-iron into a stinging wind than the 7 iron or less most often required on the 10th at Gunnamatta.

At least on Gunnamatta there is room to miss.  If you think about where to.  Or even if you think at all.  

[Chris Kane]

Mark, how many times out of 10 would you hit 7-iron or less into the 10th at Gunnamatta?

[Sean Walsh]

Matthew,

I agree re 16.  Maybe it is better than I think.  However I found that on 4 attempts the result was always the same.  Attempt to play over the large front bunker (which appears more for effect than in play - although I never played it into a strong headwind) and then wait to see where your ball feeds down to.  Depending on pin position you have a short or very long put.  

I don't see how the high side of the green could be held.  Maybe it's because I'm not a good enough golfer.  I would be very appreciative if Mike or Tom were to explain their thoughts on the construction of the hole.  I appreciate that justifying or explaining your decisions to hack architect critics like me/us may become galling but it is one of the great things about this forum that the two of you are prepared to engage in critical discussion of your projects.  

Thanks in advance

[David_Elvins]

David:
You need a refresher course in short term memory recollection. I have never said the size of the green was the major fault of the 10th hole, because I don't believe that to be the case at all.

Sorry, my bad.  I knew I should have just stuck to ripping through the 3rd hole at Gunnamatta.  Far easier.

[Mark_F]

Shane,

No, I don't really think there is much resemblance at all.  

I'm surprised that you think it is better at Barnbougle - maybe it is the bunkering that makes it seem lesser to me.  The greenside bunkering at 9 is less than inspiring, the greenside bunker at 1 looks very awkward - that word again, but maybe because I am looking at it from an artistic perspective - and I'm sorry, but the fairway bunkers at 2 are woefully inconsistent with their surrounds.  

They also direct you to the best line into the green - maybe there would be more intrigue about the hole if they weren't there, and you had to fumble your way in?

Why do you feel the bunkers are better placed at Barnbougle than St Andrews Beach?

Matt:

2 has a sound and well designed green, but the rest of it?  Uggh.

I didn't mind 16 that much, although the left hand tee makes it uglier than Sir Less Patterson's bedpan.  Middle tee it's beter, but too much similarity to the 5th, i.e a green mostly blocked by a bunkered dune?

I did play pretty well actually, but no, I wasn't driving it into positions the architects never intended, thus perhaps circumventing their strategies.

I hit it left on 6, for instance, short of the dune, but didn't have any problem hitting the green, from there.  Now, from behind it, that's another story...

I'm more interested in the fact that no one has yet provided me with a detailed answer to the main bone of my contention - namely, that it is special only because it is in Oz.

I named the great holes, then said that many of the others wouldn't be given a 2nd glance in the UK, an no one has come forward to say why they would be.

Mike came closest when he said that you can hit the low bouncing fade approach on 18, but you can do something similar to that on a great many links courses in the UK - maybe links courses are intrinsically less unique than we think?

[Mark_F]

Chris,

Every time it is downwind, of course.  

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